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Desert Armour match-ups


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I tried researching previous threads and didn't really find what I was looking for, so if this has already been hashed out then would someone please point me to the right thread? That being said I am hoping to get some current discussion going as I love hearing everyones opinion. I hope people are still playing!

Anyway my topic: In African scenarios (I feel the later war match-up of Panther/Tiger/Sherman has been done) what armor matchups or forces to you guys like and why? Any reason is okay with me. I like Stuarts cause they go fast and have 3 mg's. They are like little hot rods that mow inf. For example, I've found Stuarts to be fairly effective v. PzIV's. The slower turret, ROF and muzzle velocity and thin armor of the PzIV handicaps them as long as there are opportunites of cover for the Stuarts. But, I have found Stuarts to be ineffective V. PzIII's. But if I play the Axis I find the PzIII's smaller gun tough going against the heavier Brit and American tanks. Also I remember JasonC mentioning a scenario where he found some of the Italian tanks were highly effective v Brit armour when used properly.

I look forward to hearing your opinions any reason is fine (the stubby gun looks cool, etc.)

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lol, well said. :D

Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

The early British Cruisers, Stuarts, M-13/40's, II's, and IIIF's all match up pretty well and are a hoot, especially at longer ranges.

They shoot like crazy, miss a lot, and you and your opponent drive them like race cars from cover to cover, trying to get close enough to hit anything.

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Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

The early British Cruisers, Stuarts, M-13/40's, II's, and IIIF's all match up pretty well and are a hoot, especially at longer ranges.

They shoot like crazy, miss a lot, and you and your opponent drive them like race cars from cover to cover, trying to get close enough to hit anything.

QTF! :D

I fought a desert match once with Stuarts vs MK IVs iirc which was based off some historical meet up between the 7th Armour and the DAK.

My stuarts shot crap out of the panzers unlike real life. I was pretty surprised!

Although i like my little Valentines driving around shooting up tanks and supporting my infantry smile.gif

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Originally posted by the_enigma:

Typical CMx1 problem. Since the thin turret's small size on the Pz IV is not modeled it is very vulnerable to 37-40mm hits. The 37-40mm guns fire much faster, thus scoring hits much faster than the Pz IV can fire back (no matter whether it is long or shot 75mm). The result is many dead Pz IVs and many happy Stuarts.
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Yeah, the Stuarts tend to go fwoosh as soon as they get get hit by a 75mm. But that is part of the fun eh? Great incentive not to get shot.

After posting this question I played a 2000pt quick battle v AI armor only in Jan '42. I had Valentines, Crusaders, Stuarts and Matilda's v PzIII, PzIV's, and PZII's. I blew the crap out the Germans. Complete waste of time but fun. It was useful for learning the strengths and weaknesses of the vehicles.

I like the Stuarts for the versatility, The Matildas are an obvious choice for confronting armor. The Crusaders and Valentines fall in between.

The PZIV's were just too easy to kill for thier gun to be very effective. They couldn't get enough shots off to make a difference. The PZII total waste of time in an armor environment. The PZIII's were the biggest threat. They could kill the Valentines easy enough inside 500m could kill the Crusaders and Stuarts from about anywhere (and they did). The Mati's and Vals were great because the PZIII's had trouble knocking them out so they could spend several minutes constantly shooting toe to toe while my Stuarts and Crusaders flanked.

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The MK IIIs and IVs can go toe to toe with M3 and Shermans alright as well.

I like the Crusaders but depending on what part of the desert war were talking about there too outdated imo ( :( )unless you have the MKIII.

Same with the Matilda, the 2 pounder just doesnt cut it after a certain point.

Edit: You may not like the MK II but that and other light tanks i love in the recon and raiding role.

Use them to find the enemy so you know where to get your big guns, and there usally fast enough and armed heavily enough to deal with trucks, half tracks and guns etc so if you can slip them through the back door to where they are they prove themselves - while not diverting your main force.

I do it all the time, its great!

[ July 18, 2007, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: the_enigma ]

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Re: PzII

I was only commenting that in an armor only environment the PzII's tended to just die. Like any piece of equipment it works better in its intended role.

Unfortunatly in this battle every time a PZII showed itself there was a crusader or Stuart to blow it up. My Mats and Valentines where in the path of the main force with the lighter tanks on the flanks. So the strengths of the PZII's were nullified.

Don't get me wrong. I love having flexible and quick vehicles like Stuarts, PzII's, I like Sherman's and chafee's because of their mobility in addition to a larger gun.

Sometimes the ubertanks get annoying becuase they are slow. W/O long lines of sight thier strengths are minimized.

my 4 cents

Originally posted by the_enigma:

The MK IIIs and IVs can go toe to toe with M3 and Shermans alright as well.

I like the Crusaders but depending on what part of the desert war were talking about there too outdated imo ( :( )unless you have the MKIII.

Same with the Matilda, the 2 pounder just doesnt cut it after a certain point.

Edit: You may not like the MK II but that and other light tanks i love in the recon and raiding role.

Use them to find the enemy so you know where to get your big guns, and there usally fast enough and armed heavily enough to deal with trucks, half tracks and guns etc so if you can slip them through the back door to where they are they prove themselves - while not diverting your main force.

I do it all the time, its great!

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There's a great battle on the disc between UK and Italian forces - A-13's vs M13/40's. Tehre's a bit of infantry involved too, and some portee 2 pdrs, 75mm SP AA for teh Italians, and IIRC 4 Matilda's for the Brits.

but the main thing is the A-13's vs M13/40's - 2 pdr solid shot and easy burning tanks vs 47mm APHE is an interesting tactical situation when both sides have eggshell armour!!

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I'm playing a QB Meeting engagement with m13/40s vs Crusaders and Valentine tanks. Needless to say, I am getting completely anihilated, its been a hunt/evade scenerio after the initial first tank group of mine was anihilated by a horde or Crusaders/VAlentines.

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Is that Ariete-The Ram? the Italians have an opportunity to really hand it to the Brits on that one. Very little dead ground. Practically everybody shooting at everybody else. Big fun

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

There's a great battle on the disc between UK and Italian forces - A-13's vs M13/40's. Tehre's a bit of infantry involved too, and some portee 2 pdrs, 75mm SP AA for teh Italians, and IIRC 4 Matilda's for the Brits.

but the main thing is the A-13's vs M13/40's - 2 pdr solid shot and easy burning tanks vs 47mm APHE is an interesting tactical situation when both sides have eggshell armour!!

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I played 'The Dead Salute the Gods' a while ago, M3 Stuarts get there rear end handed to them when they mix it up with MK IVs and MK IV "Specials".

But its not all clean sailing by the end of fighting there was a mass tank graveyard along some ridge with a massive bunch of MK IVs and Stuarts which had shot crap out of one another at close range.

It was great :D

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I played "Dead Salute the Gods" V AI and annilhilated the AI W/ my Stuarts. Simply because the AI did some very, very dumb things. The AI drove the tanks single file up and over a ridge into a killzone where about 12 Stuarts could shoot the Germans one at a time. Basically letting me have my way with them. I would like to try it v a Human. The map is cool and looks replayable.

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My game was PBEM. I drove quite a few of mine onto the ridge, got sound contacts, regrouped and went over en mass with a few platoons while the rest swung around the flank of the ridge.

The fighting on the top of the ridge was close and brutal, the force swinging around the side was also brutal.

But with that over i was able to deal with all other opposition from long range and only the HT with75mm guns were able to harm me then.

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1. Mk II's still do just fine vs Cruisers, as they have a high ROF, so they tend to hit first and they will score kills. They can't take a hit, but thats part of the fun.

2. Dead Salute the Gods is very bloody PBEM. I played the American side and you must be extremely careful in using the terrain, which is abundant, to protect your Stuarts or you will have no chance.

3. Ariete - The Ram is a great scenario until the Matilda's arrive. Then its over, as the Italians have nothing that can stop them. The 90mm trucks die to MG fire and fail to penetrate the Matilda's on almost any hit. Enjoyed this one immensely PBEM until the Matilda's waltzed in and cleaned house.

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