Grog and the Car Designer - A Parable

[CommonSense]

Cut the crap people. I'm here to talk about CMX2.

Who ever "he" refers to matters little. Make your own thread about who you think I am or am not. People including myself want to hear about the new CM here.

Nidan and Wicky; are you really that bored?

Nidan; what are you thoughts on the new CM? You know the topic of this thread? Troll in other threads if the moderators don't mind but it makes it a pain in the ass to try and do something as simple as read about the new game while trying to sift through the garbage that too many post.

*edit to replace CMAK with CMX2*

[Nidan1]

Not as bored as you appear to be, friend. Although I could say I am more bored than usual on a Friday before a long weekend.

The topic of CMX2, while quite interesting really annoys me because nothing we say will ever get into the game anyway. I'm just waiting for it to come out, I'm sure it will be great.

[Tankist]

I do not understand the Grog bashing here.

Steve told us, that alot of people are imperfect, and loud and know everything better.

Is CM the best wargame ever? You bet!

But let us go back in history.

It was a VERY small group of "fans" and "grogs", who spread the word, long before all the awards come in...(a few hundred if not less).

BIGTIME Software, at this stage, was a totally unknown company of 2 men.

Charles was well known for Flight Commander and Over The Reich, but after quitting with AH, the whole company was on its own.

They were developing the "Squad Leader" computer version, but no hard data was available.

In this time window, some of the best discussions took place.

Then CMBO was published and it hits the market like an atomic bomb.

They (at this time) stayed an 'internet only' company, so it was spread of word again, that helped paying the bills.

Then, only then, came the fame.

So bashing grogs for being grogs, is a strange behavior that seems to ignore the very roots of the custoner base (who still and reliable will) pay the bills...

Tankist

[Yeknodathon]

I think I've got it... let me try? BFC is saying CMx2 will be... will be different. DIFFERENT and some of us might not like it that way.

Hmmm... *sucking in air through pursed lips* ... I'm not too sure about that... do I get a discount?

[Battlefront.com]

So bashing grogs for being grogs, is a strange behavior that seems to ignore the very roots of the custoner base (who still and reliable will) pay the bills...

I was bashing these same Grog types back when we were just Big Time Software too, so c'mon... at least give me points for being consistant CMBO was made over the LOUD objections of some of the same people that are now trying to cling onto every nut and bolt that is in CMx1. They were not helpful then, they are not helpful now. So... if they should recognized their limitations and kindly leave the rest of us alone. Come back and nitpick the game AFTER it is done, when imagination and forward is not required.

Also remember that the Grogs I've locked horns with for the past 7 years are a small fringe of a minority within a minority. If they went away completely, nothing would be different. Well, except that we'd not have to get so distracted by people telling us what we can and can not do

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Oh, and I have been meaning to add...

There are other anti-change groups that we have to contend with. You older members will remember the classic battles between me and the Gamey guys who were VERY upset about discussions about how to kill off the unrealistic use of SMG Squads. Ah... those were the days

In this case it was a small group trying to derail progress because they had a pet, highly unrealistic tactic that they understood we were out to crush. All the trash in their trash can was dumpped in front of us, but we still did it and did not suffer for it. Neither did the game system.

For a glimpse into the past check out Tom W's sig line. That was lifted right out of the thick of the battle.

BTW, Yeknodathon is obviously paying attention. Gold star for you, Yeknodathon!

Steve

[willbell]

Steve,

OK, here we go, CMx2 is a basic engine that can be adapted to any historical period. (well, maybe with some special coding ad ons for each one)

William

[willbell]

Steve,

Answer me this. When you refer to not changing the old game. You don't mean to make CMx2 into a larger strategy game, right? Some kind of Tac Ops/European Command/CM blend? When you say think in terms of sky is the limit my reaction is to try to think of the ultimate tactical level/ battalion level game, modeled on the philosophy of CMAK etc.

Am I getting this right?

William

[Tankist]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So bashing grogs for being grogs, is a strange behavior that seems to ignore the very roots of the custoner base (who still and reliable will) pay the bills...

I was bashing these same Grog types back when we were just Big Time Software too, so c'mon... at least give me points for being consistant CMBO was made over the LOUD objections of some of the same people that are now trying to cling onto every nut and bolt that is in CMx1. They were not helpful then, they are not helpful now. So... if they should recognized their limitations and kindly leave the rest of us alone. Come back and nitpick the game AFTER it is done, when imagination and forward is not required.

Also remember that the Grogs I've locked horns with for the past 7 years are a small fringe of a minority within a minority. If they went away completely, nothing would be different. Well, except that we'd not have to get so distracted by people telling us what we can and can not do

Steve </font>

[Madmatt]

As the person most directly responsible for testing AND for the sound effects in the CM series let me briefly make a few comments.

First off, the question was asked about testing methodology and techniques...

The answer? I employ Chubacabras. They are cheap and follow orders.

Now as to the sound type in the new CMx2 engine, yes I agree that waves are not at all optimal and I was in fact pushing for a better technique all the way back with CMBO in fact, but there were reasons that they were used at the time. Just like the graphics though, the sound schemes in CMx2 are also planned to get a major overhaul and update.

Madmatt

[Yeknodathon]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

BTW, Yeknodathon is obviously paying attention. Gold star for you, Yeknodathon!

Blimey, knock me sideways with a bunch of crusty carrots!

I'll take a 33% discount and an autographed copy.

... well, just one tiny questionnette... what exactly is the religous or moral issue contained in this parable? I was thinking it might be "kill eminent grogs in several entertaining and interesting ways" but I shied away from this conclusion in case I was completely mistaken or slightly intoxicated with fermented grape juice. Or both. Or neither. Or sumfink.

[Wartgamer]

Its Think Outside The Hex

[flammenwerfer]

Dorosh needs a new car.

[Wartgamer]

Chubacabras needs a new goat

[flammenwerfer]

Chupacabra needs a P.

[Wartgamer]

Chubacabras needs a scalp shave

[Battlefront.com]

William,

CMx2 is a game engine that will allow us to make many games from it without you guys having to wait years for each, unlike with the CMx1 code. The subject matter of CMx2 is also completely open ended, while CMx1 was wedded to WWII ETO only. The game scale is, in theory, flexible too. However, the first two releases (the only two we have planned out so far) will be roughly the same scale/scope as CMx1.

Tankist,

But with whom else, then grogs, can you seriuously discuss, if a MG 42 team can run or not?

Absolutely! When discussing something like this, bring on the Grogs! Examining the minutia of a very specific feature is what Grogs do best. Well, until some living history German MG gunner starts spouting off stuff about how wrong we simulate the MG34/42, then disappears after I expose his misinformation by quoting right out of the German Squad Handbook. Hehehe... anybody remember that one? Classic 1999 or 2000 posting Heck, that even made it into a cartoon that was then passed around the Forum!

So please... don't anybody get me wrong. Grogs are a great resource, even if their people skills are sometimes not the best. But that does not mean they are "qualified" to speak with equal authority on all subjects simply because they are related to wargaming. Just as a fry cook probably knows how to cook a Hell of a burger and fries, but if put in charge of the restaurant would run it into the ground in a week, Grogs should recognize where their area of expertise is and isn't.

Steve

[Wartgamer]

Chubacabras that live in glass hexes should't throw goats

[flammenwerfer]

Grogs do not use cupholders for their grog.

[Wartgamer]

Grogachubras do

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Grogs are a great resource, even if their people skills are sometimes not the best.

.Sig material, that.

Steve

[JonS]

MrSpkr - did you ask?

[CommonSense]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

As the person most directly responsible for testing AND for the sound effects in the CM series let me briefly make a few comments.

First off, the question was asked about testing methodology and techniques...

The answer? I employ Chubacabras. They are cheap and follow orders.

Now as to the sound type in the new CMx2 engine, yes I agree that waves are not at all optimal and I was in fact pushing for a better technique all the way back with CMBO in fact, but there were reasons that they were used at the time. Just like the graphics though, the sound schemes in CMx2 are also planned to get a major overhaul and update.

Madmatt

Always good to see people in good humor.

Great news as well! I figured as much but thought I would ask.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by JonS:

MrSpkr - did you ask?

Nope, but I am QUITE SURE that BFC will let me know if they object . . .

Now, as to giving Yeknod a Gold Star -- can we pin it on his chest (using a very sharp needle with a very hot point, of course)?

Steve

[JonS]

So thats a 'no' then. Shame - it was quite a simple rule. With you being involved in the law and stuff - it's odd that you think it doesn't apply to you. What about the grogs - did you at least ask them?