Meach Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Hi Anyone help me out with a question? A 50mm mortar blast is about 5 and I was wondering if a hand-grenade would be about the same value as in a small but vicious fire-fight I counted 8 grenades being thrown in total by 2 squads. If my math is right that equals about 40 firepower in a short time, accurate as well. Anyone got the value of a hand-grenade burst? Even a good guess would help. Would a hand-grenade contain the same amount of explosive as a 50mm mortar shell IRL? My gut feeling is less explosive but more casing to get flung about in a 'nade? C'mon, lads give me your tuppence worth. Thanks, Meach. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I never thought of this before, but... Are the blast / firepower values supposed to be directly comparable? Also, are hand grenades modeled like all ballistic projectiles in CM, or are they an abstraction, like the tank assaults? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 Good points. I always thought a blast of 50 was comparable to hitting the enemy unit with accurate firepower of 50, say 5 garand rifles unloading. By abstraction you mean not what is graphically represented? Is a nade being thrown just another "burst" of firepower represented by the nade chucked into the enemy unit? Hmmm...anyone from BFC got info they would like to share or anyone else? Thanks Bone-Vulture for the input. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 No problem. I think that all thrown projectiles are simulated as individual objects: the grenade bundle is a good example. Destroying a tank with one is a hit/miss spiel. But even if the bundle misses, the computer calculates it's "trajectory", and a landing spot. Any soft targets near this spot are likely to suffer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: I never thought of this before, but... Are the blast / firepower values supposed to be directly comparable? Yes, but the shell blast rating is ruther subject to range. A shell exposion with blast rating 77 direct on top of a squad is like a smallarms burst rating 77, but the same blast 50 meters away is much less. Furthermore, there are some interesting first-hit modifiers. If you are in for some fun, set up a full SMG platton 10-20 meters behind an enemy squad in pavement (exposure=100) and fire away. The first burst will cause almost no casulties, only when they craw (usually in the direction of the threat ) will casulties mount. Same if you hit with an 88: the first impact is pretty harmless, only subsequent hits cause the major casulties. I would be interested in the rationale for this effect. Also, are hand grenades modeled like all ballistic projectiles in CM, or are they an abstraction, like the tank assaults? I don't understand the question. You see the grenades fly, both if they are thrown at tanks and when they are thrown at infantry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by redwolf: I don't understand the question. You see the grenades fly, both if they are thrown at tanks and when they are thrown at infantry. See my last post. The point was that when assaulting a tank, the damage is based on whether you hit the tank with the "thrown" AT weapon, although the throwing itself is an abstraction. And I assumed that a grenade is handled as an individual object that causes damage by proximity, and not by whether it "hits" the target infantry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 It is like when they throw a Magnetic Mine...those things had to be clamped into place if I recall. It is some poor Gefreiter running for his life up to the tank and clamping it on the rear, but we see it sailing thru the air. So the further away the blast is the less "blast" it does? Fair point but I thought the whole purpose of HE was to deliver the full load at any distance? I know firepower degrades over distance but blast? Thanks for all the ideas, please keep them coming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Harmes Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I think redwolf may have been talking about where the blast hits... not where it was fired from... lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 Sorry, my post was not too clear. I thought the radius of the blast contained the same amount of "blast" to it's edges of the radius. The blast radius being proportional to the blast value. What Lord Harmes is saying is, I think, that the blast has diminishing effect to the radius? Like several bands of blast damage? I can see the sense in that but I wonder if it is modelled in CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Goddamnit, I feel like drawing a graph... :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 I seem to have a knack for annoying people today...I will just shut up now. But if you do wish to draw a graph I would appreciate it! Meach 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Harmes Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Erm... I don't actually know this for sure, but I can only assume that the blast decreases in power from the centre outwards... At least thats what obviously happens in real life, and what seems to happen during the game. Though I do often wonder if the radius of the damage effect is determined by the blast value of the explosion, or pre-set distance according to the size/type of weapon being used... oh god! does that make sense? lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I wonder where my original response went? Ah well, this graph is available at some other thread as well, I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Lovely graph, and gives a good depiction of what it means to say. Unfortunately, I don't think that's what Meach is asking. In order to answer his question graphically, the vertical line should measure casualties (as you have it) and the horizontal line should measure distance from the center of blast. The blast itself is assumed to be constant. Then the curve should start high and end low as one measures farther and farther from the center of blast. Whether the curve should be convex, straight, or concave, or some other more complex shape, I frankly don't know. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Meh, I just noticed that the curve can only be adjusted downwards, depending on the target's cover. Otherwise you'll rake casualties with a blast value of zero. It's difficult to have an anywhere near accurate graph, since there are so many factors. Does the protection provided by cover increase geometrically with the reduction of the blast value? How exactly are the casualties calculated? A base chance for each member of the team? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 I appreciate the graph, thanks, BV. Mr Emrys has hit the nail on the head. Grenade has a blast value of 5, for arguments sake, if it hits a squad bang in the middle of the 3 men..5 damage...hits 1m to the left or right of the actual soldiers would they take say 4 damage or still the full 5 damage? Blast reduction to edges of blast radius. Sorry I have made a right mess of this thread, just not got the articulation to put my point across clearly. The main point as well is does a grenade even have a blast value? 50mm Mortar is blast 5 on average..would a grenade be about the same? Thanks for all your patience. Chris. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Sorry I know I should just shut up and I know my post will not change anything but I thought I would have my little say on the grenade system. My understanding is that grenades would be used prior to an assault on a position – not one but a number would be thrown. So typically the squad comes a cross a trench system instead of engaging it in a fire fight they cannot win, they sneak forward under the cover of smoke or terrain until they get within grenade throwing distance and a number of grenades are thrown at the same time into the trench and then they rush forward and engage the survivors. In CM does not work like that – one grenade is thrown – from being on the receiving end, it is rare for even a single man to be killed or the unit pinned let alone routed. The infantry squad seems to have infinite grenades despite the display suggesting variable numbers are issued the icons never drop. Against vehicles it works much better, an infantry unit can disable a tank who dares to come to close to infantry. However, sometimes a unit will attack with grenades other times it will not. I have had an open top halftrack disabled in front of infantry unit and just begging for a load of grenades to be thrown inside but nothing happened. The squad had good morale, was in cover, nobody was firing at them but they just sat there! I think I would have preferred a system more illustrative of the effects and tactics, than one of working out the minute blast and arc of throw of a single grenade. If indeed it is calculated that way! [ February 10, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 The infantry squad seems to have infinite grenades despite the display suggesting variable numbers are issued the icons never drop. I seem to remember reading in the manual that in real life an average infantry squad would have about 15-20 grenades. It went on to say that it was very unlikely that all these would be used in the space of a CM scenario and therefore keeping track of individual grenades was not really practical, and therefore not done by the game Will check that out when I get home from work but I'm pretty sure that's what the manual says. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I think each hand grenade symbol represents several "eggs"... like 3 or 5? But they do disappear if a squad throws for a while. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Mark Gallear: In CM does not work like that – one grenade is thrown – from being on the receiving end, it is rare for even a single man to be killed or the unit pinned let alone routed.Wrong. I have watched many a close-in exchange of fire. A squad may throw none or many grenades, but the average appears to be 1-3 per turn. Probably depends on unit experience, casualties, morale, energy level, leadership bonuses and whatever. Also, I am convinced that I have seen casualties caused by grenades. The grenade went pop and the casualties immediately appeared on the unit information screen. This has been observed on more than one occasion. It's much harder to isolate grenades as a cause for routing, but I take it that they contribute to the cumulative effect of all firepower received by a unit during the turn. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Gallear: In CM does not work like that – one grenade is thrown – from being on the receiving end, it is rare for even a single man to be killed or the unit pinned let alone routed.Wrong. I have watched many a close-in exchange of fire. A squad may throw none or many grenades, but the average appears to be 1-3 per turn. Probably depends on unit experience, casualties, morale, energy level, leadership bonuses and whatever. Also, I am convinced that I have seen casualties caused by grenades. The grenade went pop and the casualties immediately appeared on the unit information screen. This has been observed on more than one occasion. It's much harder to isolate grenades as a cause for routing, but I take it that they contribute to the cumulative effect of all firepower received by a unit during the turn. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 I get what you mean. The grenade being thrown graphics could be the pre-assault hail of grenades if the blast value was a bit higher and caused some pinning. I have seen casualties from grenades but hardly any pinning or suppression. It must depend on all the combat factors involved because sometimes I have seen a literal hail of grenades being thrown and sometimes only one. Experience of the troops must come into the equation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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