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Timetravel and its ramifications ...


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Originally posted by Big Demonic Bunny:

Those hits would have to be VERY lucky.

It only takes one.

Yes one can go pretty fast across the farms of Germany, right into one of the many creeks, rivers, drainage ditches, or other hazards out there. Then, of course there are the woods. I don't know how many M1s I have had chase me into the trees wanting to show off their turbine powered muscle. Most got stuck, many threw track and one even managed to drown its driver at the bottom of a very big mud hole.

Fighting men learn to addapt very quickly if you don't kill them the first time you meet them. How many M1s died to Iraqi fire in GW1? How about this time. If you really want to kill something you will figure out how to do it.

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Aye, an Abrams isn't exactly a good tank for long fighting since it has a cruising range of a mere 275 miles and needs to be refueled every 8 hours on average.

Not to mention that it features a gas turbine, which means unconventional fuel and I don't think that WWII germany could even correct the slightest error of such an engine since it requires very heat-resistant parts(I think we all know about the troubles WWII germany had with Me-262 engines).

The allies wouldn't have it alot easier either.

The Leo 2 would be easier to maintain since it runs on conventional diesel and uses a conventional(if advanced) diesel engine.

It also has a cruising range that far supercedes the M1.

EDIT: SgtGoody. I don't know much about the Abrams off-road preformance. But I do know that the Leo 2 can handle fords, creeks and tons and tons of mud with ease. More than both the Challenger or the Leclerc.

We had a 2 week exercise in our poor excuse for a training area(it's basicly a moor with a few sour pine forests in the dryer areas). We had 1, I repeat 1, just a single Leo getting stuck during the whole exercise. And none threw a track.

And it had been raining for half a month so that the field after those tanks had gone through looked like a meterdeep mudpit.

[ January 09, 2004, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Big Demonic Bunny ]

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Originally posted by Scheer:

Hi all,

suppose I have a timetravelling device, take a modern tank ( may it be an Abrams, Challenger 2, T-72, Leopard 2, whatever ), and go back to WW2 -

would I have to fear anything from the tanks of this timeframe ? Would a Kingtiger or IS2 or M36 Jackson be able to kill my tank ?

Your only real fear would be the intel weenies who are going to take that sucker apart down to nuts and bolts and figure out how to reverse-engineer it.
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M1's can burn just about anything. As far as combat, its all about the tactics, not armor thickness. Given one M1A1 (mine :D ) with a platoon of Bradleys as support, in nice hull down position, with alternate battle positons, my crew was able to destroy a company of tanks plus PC support. We had a few casualties as well. I think of this time travel scenario pretty often,actually. With an experienced crew, a mechanic support near by and infantry support, I think I can take out atleast a company of anything the Germans had at ranges starting at 3000 meters. As long as they didnt use arty or airstrikes.

There were LOT more destroyed Abrams in the new gulf war, most killed by the new advanced russian made RPG that iraqis got. They are fighting smarter, in urban terrain tanks are almost worthless no matter the armor thickness.

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Thanks gentlemen ( and Lady ), for the numerous, interesting replies. First, you´re right this is slightly OT but seeing the admin participate ... ;)

This idea developed in a discussion with one of my dear PBEM enemies. ( Hi Strider, Don,Rhudat,BigMik1,Harold,Ralf ... )

So, if I can choose the tank to go back to WW2, I think I would take the Leopard in it´s newest revision. I´ve seen these things moving FAST at the maneuverground in Bergen back when I was in the army ( lowly pioneer ).

And yeah, only the tank was our thought, sumthing like a " Saving Private Ryan " throuigh time ... so no support for that tank. And it has to be back in 48 hours ...

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Two thoughts reading the thread:

1. I think an M1's biggest fear might be mines. Second biggest fear might be that while it can burn a lot of things for fuel, someone has to get out and get the fuel with guys like Vassily Zaitsev waiting to put a bullet between their eyes.

2. I would think that we've already seen what the fate of an M1 would be in a WWII battle: nothing could touch it, but one tank can't win a battle. In the face of overwhelming force from one side against the other side's positions, it would suffer the same fate as the KVs in 1941 or the Sturmtiger in 1945 -- abandoned after the battle was lost.

Since we're already in sci-fi, check out Dream Pod 9's version of an M1 walker here, the Bradley walker here, a Humvee walker here, and a T-72 walker here.

Thanks for an interesting topic and discussion!

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I think there are some other major problems with usefulness if you bring something like an M1A2 or Leopard back that far.

Firstly, these tanks primary mission is against armor. A modern HEAT round is NOT the same as a WWII HE round, and won't do the same against soft targets. Currently I am not aware of any Smoke, HE, WP or Canister round for the 120mm. You would probably be better off using a straight M-1 with the 105mm where you have all of those options. It's still going to dominate against anything else in the era, and with only 1 you wont miss the IVIS system.

Also, what the hell is going to pull a 65 ton tank out of hull-deep mud in 1945? It will be a beast for M31's and M32's to try and tug out of anything, even in numbers.

No matter how good the survivability of an M1A2 is against tanks, landmines are just as capable against modern armor as WWII era stuff. I'm sure that in urban combat, even molotov's and grenade bundles in sufficient numbers will take out an Abrams.

1 critical electronics component breaks, it just aint gettin fixed in that era. And that thermal sight is a pretty big target for somebody good enough with a PTRS.

Personally, if I was going to zap back in time I'd take a single B-1B loaded with JDAM's and hit the eagles nest at a time that Hitler and crew were present. A good grog book is wonderful intel if you have a time machine. Then I'd turn it east and drop one right on Uncle Iosef. Considering the range of a B-1, and the fact that over 30,000ft you are invulnerable in that era... you could probably do it in 1 trip.

Then just punch out over the mid atlantic, and it they would be building the things again by the time technology exists to dive down and retrieve it to back-engineer anything.

-Hans

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Modern tanks really don't need anything more than HEAT-MP-T and APFSDS rounds for it's 120mm gun.

The effect of the coaxial machinegun is bad ass enough when it's supported by the systems of a modern MBT. In the case of the Leo you got 1200 7.62 rounds per minute that pretty much will annihilate any soft target it's aimed at. From trucks to personel.

The role the machinegun doesn't work effectivly in and the APFSDS is poor at(taking out targets only protected against light calibre fire, and no more) is a niche where the HEAT-MP-T excels.

So the unavailability of a pure HE round for the M1 or Leo 2 is no problem.

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For cm2 this would call for a 'Orge' scenario. WWI AFV vs a rogue modern tank.

Hopefully with Cm2/3 at least such a conflict might be constructable.

Image a M-1 with two fuel and 1 ammo truck versus 120 M11/39s with zealot crews......

Having constructed and played a number of Stuart vs King Tiger scenarios - yes the little tanks will win, but at a horrible cost.

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