flamingknives Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 There are a number of vehicles in CMAK with an HMG as main armament with a rifle calibre co-ax (going by screenshots and sneak preview) The question is: How was the this combination used in real life? The 15mm BESA is a real monster - practically an auto-cannon, but I understnd that it's modelled in game as an HMG. Is this accurate (as in true to life)? Was it used like an HMG? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I remember reading both the BESA 15mm and Boys HMG (direct conversion from the ATR) both suffered from barrel whipping and were used in short burst and single shot. Magazines were also unwieldy. Neither weapon was at all well-liked from what I understand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 flamingknives, The following passage is from a Vickers VIB gunner. The Vickers was armed with 1 x Vickers .5 MG and 1 x Vickers .303 MG. Dawn Attack During the battle for Sidi Rezegh, corporal Bob Loughnan served as gunner/radio operator in D'Arcy Cole's tank in No 1 Troop of C Squadron. On the 29th of November 1941 his troop was at a place called Zaafran. The previous evening they had fought off a German attack in a short but stiff action. That morning they awoke to find a German armoured car in their midst. The car drove off treating them to a burst of machine gun fire. Then just as quickly they found themselves in the middle of another short but sharp action. A few anti tank shells had come by and our driver, Shorty Gollan, who was having some trouble getting his shutter to close, was bawling back over his shoulder to "... turn off that light you bloody idiot." I had the turret light on so I could see to load the guns. It must have been a horribly uncomfortable moment for him, facing directly towards the enemy fire and acutely aware that the drivers hatch was wide open thus exposing his whole upper body, silhouetted in the glow of a lamp behind him; and all this against a back ground of a dawn that was as yet hardly even grey. Once my guns were loaded and I was ready to fire I stood up head and shoulders out of the turret and took a good look all around before I had to restrict my field of vision to the little circle my gunsight provided. There were several machine guns firing what seemed like 'one-in one' tracer, and I thought, still on 'fixed lines'. There were men standing erect. They may have just come up out of slit trenches because I had the impression they were stretching themselves. One was certainly pissing. One group was walking towards us, coming between what could be anti tank guns. In a slight fold in the ground, and therefore hard to spot at first glance against the dark ground and the light of the coming dawn just above them, were what could be half tracked troop carriers or hull down tanks. To my immediate left was one of our Honeys, then Snowy's Mark VI, and beyond it a Valentine. Ernie Read, our Corporal, was just behind the Honey and, lined out to the right beyond him another Honey and about six more Valentines. Everything was moving slowly forward except, away over beyond the Valentines and at the foot of the escarpment there was a line of our 3 ton trucks scampering away out of the line of fire. A ball of green light coming straight at us seemed to veer away, turn into a flash of white light about afoot long, and shoot past the far side of our tank, hit the ground and go straight upwards. One thing I don't think I ever got used to was being able to follow the flight of a projectile. It is so different from what one's imagination conjures up; its relative slowness; the curve it makes through the air. It is all so different it becomes unreal. This particular one was an anti tank solid shot with a tracer and very close. "Vickers - Traverse right 400 - Men - On - FIRE. "STOP - No observation - Down 200 - Same target - FIRE - "STOP - Traverse left - Same range - 'Maggie' - On - FIRE "STOP - Target!" There was not a soul to be seen now. They were all hugging the ground right; had disappeared down into the gloom. There was quite a lull for a minute or two. Then: "Point Five - Traverse left - Same range - A single shot - 'Ant' - (then doubtfully) On - Wait for the gunflash." It came, dazzling white, and from out of it emerged another fiery streak which seemed to curve lazily in towards us and then violently back the other way right across the circle of my telescope as it flashed past the turret. "FIRE - No observation - 303 - Fire at the gun flash." Four times that gun let fly at us and missed, but adjust my range as I might I could not get my own scarlet tracers down to its level. At this stage a thought distracted me. I had been able to see the scarlet tracers front the other two Vickers', but now there was none. A ?group' call came through but my microphone was stuffed in my pocket and I missed acknowledging in my turn. The standard practice when this happened was for the sergeant's set, normally used just as a listening station, to reply for the Troop leader, at the end of the group. This time no reply went back from Snowy's set, nor from Ernie's. Out on this left flank our troop had been engaging two anti tank guns, the one having at D'Arcy's tank and the other at Snow's and Ernie's. Now there seemed to be but the one tank and the one gun firing. I sensed that D'Arcv had swung his cupola so he could have a good look to our right. I stood lip again. There was nothing in sight either side absolutely nothing. We were still advancing, through slowly, alone. Not until many months later did I know that at that moment three men in a single little tank were shaping up to a whole Panzer division. All the other tanks, the Valentines and the Honeys, had been called back. Before I could duck down and warn D'Arcy, the other gun, the one on the left fired at us. The shell landed right behind our rear bogey wheel showering me with dust. In an instant I was back down in my seat furiously traversing left. D'Arcy was concentrating on something away out to the other side and, of the two guns, this was obviously the more accurate. I did not need to hear the command "On". The gun flashed again and right in the cross wires of my sights. My right thumb pushed up the safety catch of my .3 and I felt the hurt of it where I had lost the skin. I held that trigger for a good twenty rounds until the gun faltered slightly. I had swung the turret just a little to left and right to make sure of this target I could not see properly. There came no reply from it. But that burst also turned out to be our undoing. The other gun had been presented with a good bright muzzle blast from us to lay sights on and no gun-fire to keep hint blinking either. I seemed to have silenced one gun without waiting for any fire commands so presumably D'Arcy was content now to leave me to my own devices. Whatever it was there was something out to the right engaging his whole attention anyway. The feeling in me as I traversed back towards their first gun was for all the world like I imagine a big dog would feel ruffled but victorious, its hackles still up, strutting on its toes away from a fight. Then the gun fired. Its flash was near the cross wires and the steel passed very close. Now that feeling of bristling hackles gave way to a new one; a kind of hateful, calculating, spiteful, feline cunning; not ready to pounce until dead certain of the prey. One short burst of .303 told me the range was right for one tracer pellet flew straight upwards. It had ricocheted off something solid. Nor then did I hurry. I was quite prepared to act on a fire command or else wait for the next shot, make absolutely sure from the flash, and go in for the kill. That was a disastrous pause. There came another gun flash and emerging from it that same swelling ball of light. But this time it developed not into a white streak but into a perfect white circle swelling up. It only had to travel 200 yards but in that time I was able to notice the difference and think: "My number's on this one." It landed right behind the guns. To me there was no sensation of sound of explosion just a blinding flash. Shorty told me later how he had been peering through his visor puffing hard on a cigarette, quite happy as long as the guns were barking and chattering above his head and feeling rather foolish for ducking his head this way and that as the shells came past. Then there was an awful crash up above and a dead silence. So intense was this, so he said that it gave to him the same feeling one would get driving fast into the night and have the headlights go out with no warning. My next conscious thought was of surprise that I was sitting sideways in my seat, hunched up in what seemed a silly drunken attitude. The air seemed thick with the smell of cordite smoke; there was hot water dribbling on my knees from a damaged gun; and I thought I had been disembowelled or shorn open right across the belly. Bob Loughnan was severely wounded in this engagement, so much so that, before getting back to the main hospital in Tobruk, he was given up for dead at least twice. Then the hospital ship on which he was being evacuated to Alexandria was sunk by bombers. Bob was eventually picked by another vessel and returned safely to Egypt.It is taken from Plowman, J. and Thomas, M. (2002). 2nd New Zealand Divisional Cavalry Regiment in the Mediterranean. Regards JonS [ November 29, 2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 The .50/.30 mix is still used quite a lot - there's a variant of the M113 that has brownings of those calibres in a single man turret. I believe the rifle calibre mg is supposed to be for infantry, while the heavy MG is supposed to be for "harder" targets - as in lightly armoured or behind cover that it can penetrate such as buildings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 Quite a story, Jon. Thank you. I must admit to being somewhat surprised that the VIB was still in frontline use that late in the game. I would have thought that all the survivors had been sent to the Delta for minor duties by the time of Crusader. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Quite a story, Jon. Thank you. I must admit to being somewhat surprised that the VIB was still in frontline use that late in the game. I would have thought that all the survivors had been sent to the Delta for minor duties by the time of Crusader. Michael Only the best will do for the colonial sc... err, allies of the Crown Mike. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 I may be mistaken, but the passage makes no reference to use of the .50 cal at all. This, and other posts seem to imply that the HMG was used more like a main gun than a machine gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 You are mistaken. "Point Five - Traverse left - Same range - A single shot - 'Ant' - (then doubtfully) On - Wait for the gunflash."Definately refers to it, and the passage preceding that one may also refer to it. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 So what does 'Ant' mean in this context? It would be useful to know what they were shooting at with the .50 cal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: So what does 'Ant' mean in this context?Dunno. Dunno what "maggie" means either. It would be useful to know what they were shooting at with the .50 cal. [/QB]Mmm. Well, he does sort-of talk about the types of targets that are out in front of him. I know it doesn't answer all your questions, but then one guys reminisces of a single battle seldom will I posted it as but a single example that addresses the topic you were asking about Be cool JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: So what does 'Ant' mean in this context?Antitank gun seem likely. That's what they were engaging. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: Dunno what "maggie" means either."Magazine" comes to mind. Were the guns belt fed or did they have drum magazines like Lewis guns? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 Both guns were essentially Vickers MGs - the .50cal was basically an enlarged .303 version. Therefore both are belt-fed. Apparently, the MkVIb carried only 200 rounds of .5 AP ammunition and about 2000 rounds of .303 ball. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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