Jump to content

Hetzer promotion


Recommended Posts

Welcome to the historic war shopping channel. And here are your hosts for today, Frank and George.

Frank: "Hi all!"

George: "Hello folks."

Frank: "So George, what do you have for us today?"

George: "Well, Frank, you probably know the problem, its around mid 44 to early 45 and your enemy is buying the big gun stuf, IS2, Fireflies, (I)SU tankhunters, all the big badass stuff that keeps blowing your Tigers and Panthers up."

Frank: "Oh yes George, sure. And even my StuGs, shimmering stars of the early years are chewed up by them. It's a shame."

George: "Well, Frank, that's why I am here today. Let me promote something that ends all your problems."

Frank: "Oh, you are probably talking about the Kingtiger and Jagdtiger, George."

George: "No my friend, there is something even better."

Frank: "But that is quite costly isn't it?"

George: "Not at all Frank! Well, let me present you..."

*Sting*

esci8375hetzerxt0.th.jpg

Frank: "But George, that's a Hetzer..."

George: "Yep Frank, this is a Hetzer, the solution of all your problems."

Frank: "But he has only 60mm front armor. Thats even less than a StuG..."

George: "Well, you are right, the Hetzer has only 60mm front armor. But he is curved."

Frank: "So are my Panthers - but they have much better turret armor and still even a T-34/85 can penetrate them."

Geirge: "Well Frank, I think you are missing something here. Your Panthers armor is curved horizontal, while the Hetzer is curved vertical."

Frank: "Okay, but the T-34/85 can easily go through the Hetzers front armor, George."

George: "And that's exactly were its getting tricky."

Frank: "George, now, comon, don't tell me you know a secret about the Hetzer we don't know?"

George: "Well, I guess some of you know, but not all. So, Frank, while I am going to build up my stuff here, how about a short commercial for our audience?"

Frank: "Okay George, coming up. Well, folks, see you later!"

*your ad here*

*your ad here*

*even more of your ads here*

Frank: "Thanks for staying tuned folks, lets get back to George and his Hetzer."

Frank: "So George... You just have made a little hill over here. That is your secret?"

George: "Yes Frank. But let me explain it. As I said, the Hetzer's armor is curved vertical. Combat Mission considers terrain elevation when computing shots. Now we drive our Hetzer up the hill, so that only his upper hull and gun are pointing over the top. Let me show it to you."

cmbbhetzer01rn0.th.jpg

Frank: "Okay George, now your Hetzer is in a hull down position, but, seriously..."

George: "Ah, Frank, you don't trust me?"

Frank: "Well, you know..."

George: "But no problem, look over there, I have brought some tanks with me... A T-34/85, an ISU-122 and an IS2. Get in and try if you can get my Hetzer."

Frank: "You are kidding me, George, right?"

George: "No Frank, get in, they have AP ammo loaded. Fire a few rounds."

Frank: "Okay George, it's your Hetzer being messed up not mine..."

*gunfire sound from the offstage*

*more gunfire*

*quite a lot of gunfire!*

George: "So, while Frank is busy trying to shoot my Hetzer, let me show you how big his chances are. Don't mind the language, I am using a german version, I will translate for you."

cmbbhetzer02ge0.th.jpg cmbbhetzer03fy4.th.jpg cmbbhetzer04wd7.th.jpg

George: "See the fourth line? 'Zerstören: keine' this means: 'kill chance: none'. So our poor Frank can try to shoot all day long, he won't be able to penetrate my Hetzer. Ah, I think he finally gave up. Welcome back Frank!"

Frank: "George, what is this? I fired about a hundred shells at your Hetzer, but all I did was scrapping the paint off."

George: "Well Frank, remember what I said about the curved armor? Its curved vertical, so if we bring up the Hetzer to such a slope, his curved armor is getting a huge defence boost."

Frank: "So that means, if I can get my Hetzer in a position like that, neither T-34/85, nor an IS2 or an ISU-122 can destroy him?"

George: "Actually, he is immune to all but the russian SU-100, the 100mm/L54 and occasional destructions by extreme big HE shells."

Frank: "Amazing George, but that's probably doesn't work for CMAK..:"

George: "Frankly (sorry for the wordplay Frank), if you believe it or not, yes, it is working for CMAK. Not even the latest british tanks with the new 76.2mm/L55 and APDS ammo can get through our Hetzer's front armor. The only gun capable to kill him is the american 90mm/L50 AA gun - which you will almost never encounter."

Frank: "Amazing!"

George: "Yes Frank and the best thing: You can get the Hetzer for about 100 points."

Frank: "Fantasic George, now, if you excuse me, I am going to buy some platoons of Hetzers for my next game..."

George: "Oh Frank, please, please, wait a second."

Frank: "So there is still somethink you want to tell me?"

George: "Yes Frank, you know, what i have shown you is a rather perfect placement for your Hetzer. In a real battle, you do not get so many good slopes for a Hetzer - best ones have 2 high levels difference - and even less of them offer your Hetzer a good firing position. So don't buy Hetzer's like a mad (one could say... 'GAGA') guy. Just consider this as a good hint that may come useful some day."

Frank: "I surely will, George. Well, thank you very, very much for you explanation. Hope to see you soon again on the historic war shopping channcel!"

George: "Bye folks."

Frank: "See you later, alligator!"

PS: Sry for the bad english ^^;

[ June 22, 2007, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: GAGA Extrem ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GAGA Extrem,

A classic CM post! You'll need to register, but the people on the CM Forum on Tactics/Training at Fragments will doubtless be interested not just in what you've found, but your droll way of presenting it. One of the things the game doesn't model very well is what happens when projectiles significantly wider than the thickness of the armor hit impact sloped armor. Suffice it to say that the normal rules don't apply and that the effective armor thickness is less than the usual calculations would indicate. I've seen reports in which a Panther took a 122mm glacis hit which not only punched clear through the armor, but drove the

engine clean out the back. According the article, the guy next to him saw that and simply bailed out.

Hetzers are great--within limits. Their ammo capacity is lowish, they have little MG ammo for the remote mount, and they can be killed with a .50 caliber HMG or similar from the flank. Lost one in CMBO to a marauding MG jeep, of all things.

Strafed my poor Hetzer as it rolled past at speed.

Rat Patrol style!

http://tinyurl.com/2k7zn4

Regards,

John Kettler

[ June 21, 2007, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'kill chance: none' in CM doesn't really mean that, if you fire for a while it'll do.

In fact, the "curved" rating on the front shield of the Hetzer and the Jagdpanzer IV that were introduced in CMBB and CMAK, as opposed to CMBO where it was just angled, severely weakened these vehicles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Redwolf:

'kill chance: none' in CM doesn't really mean that, if you fire for a while it'll do.

Yes, you can fire for 15 minutes and hope to get a track or gun hit, so they abandon the vehicle.

You can also mass your guns against him, so the crew will abandon him.

But kill chance 'none' for the Hetzer means none in this position. You can make them abandon but you cannot 'kill' him. (Though the difference is probably only important for operation maps...)

But I have made about 100 test runs - and except for very high caliber HE, there was nothing that killed (=destroyed) even a single Hetzer in this position.

Granted, you can try from a higher elevation so the bonus is negated, but that's probably not what you mean ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I am back...

I have played around a bit and found out, that the T-70 turret also seems to be curved vertically.

I have made 10 test runs, Panzer IV H vs T-70 M.43 @ 250m - and the T-70 won 7:3 (using his 4 special ammo rounds).

Though the displayed kill chance was "none" when the tank was positioned properly near the hilltop, the T-70 could still be knocked out by upper hull hits (even HE ammo)*. However, all turret shots from the Panzer IV were deflected - and even 88mm ap from a Tiger in another test.

So the T-70 is not invulnerable in this sloped position, but it becomes a good challenge for teh enemies Panzer III, IV and even the StuG series, considering the cheap costs (around 45 iirc?)...

smile.gif

* edit: In another test run, the Panzer IV was set off a bit to the left, so the T-70 rotated a bit to the left and was shot 20 times with no upper hull hit - I doubt this was a lucky coincidence, so it might be able to render him immune to ~88mm caliber fire...

[ June 30, 2007, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: GAGA Extrem ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing i have to add:

It looks like the IS2 actually CAN penetrate a hetzer in a slooped position. I have even had some results were a non fatal HE hit ("front upper hull hit - no serious damage") resulted in a KO state!

cmbbhetzer05io6.th.jpg

(Translation: Front upper hull hit - no serious damage)

So the following tanks can kill a Hetzer in a sloped position:

IS-2, ISU-152, SU-100

So it looks like that CMBB does take shell diameter into account - though limited. The ISU-152 can penetrate the Hetzers upper hull with HE ammo - which usually leaves an exploding Hetzer behind, so does the IS2. Even the ISU-122 tries HE shells, though they seem to have no effect.

[ July 01, 2007, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: GAGA Extrem ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think CM should have Moded the bigger guns better when it comes to Knocking out Armored Vehicles it cant penetrate.

I remember back in my WW2 Miniatures gaming days ( which I still have an interest ) with one set of rules called Tractics. If for some reason the big guns did not penetrate there was still the blast factor that KOed a tank. There would be anywhere from a 25% to 75% chance of killing the tank because the front armor would buckle or crack, suspension damage, a crew casualty with the rest of crew dazzed.

This is a rough idea of what I remembered:

the M4 105 Sherman that did not penetrate would still have a 25% chance KO of Heavy Vehicle and a 50% chance of crew casualty and becoming dazzed for couple minutess with no further action until recovered.

If a SU 122 did not penetrate there was a 50% chance KO of Heavy Vehicle and 50% chance of a crew casualty and crew becoming dazzed for few minutes.

If a SU 152 did not penetrate there was a 75% chance of KO with automatic Crew casualty and crew being dazzed for a few minutes.

[ July 01, 2007, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...