Scouting with Armored Cars or Lt Tanks

[birdstrike]

I ran a small test, just to get a better idea of AC survivablitily (by no means this should be considered as battle-tested).

Units used:

German light guns (Pak36, Pak38, 37mm Flak, 20mm Flak, 20mm Quad Flak, all Elite)

against Allied scout cars (M20, M3, Dingo, HumberIII, Stuart Recce, Humber Scout Car, all regular).

Test consisted of a 2000m range of flat, dry ground with the ACs closing in frontally on the guns (guns were hidden in a patch of wood).

What I found out:

German 37mm Flak is deadly effective against ACs at up to 1000m. Much more so than the Pak36. Safe for the Stuart Recon it always killed all ACs. However it is detectable at 500m.

The 20mm Flak is still invisible at 500m, but it is less effective than the 37mm. 20mm in average needs considerably more hits to take out an AC, a single hit often didn't cause any damage at all (the Quad Flak is considerably more effective, though). Several ACs could get within the 500m range before they were taken out.

In general, most ACs sustained several hits before being abandoned or destroyed. Even 37mm was not always able to take out a vehicle with a single hit. (The Pak38 being the exception, of course.) At the same time, ACs suffered heavily from crew demoralization. Continous, non-penetrating hits forced the crew to bail. Even a 20mm could take out a Stuart Recce this way.

Therefore, the high ROF makes Flak in general more effective than the 37mm Pak36, for instance.

The 20mm Quad Flak would take only around 1-2 minutes of shooting to force a crew out of a Stuart Recce. Eats up ammo like there is no tomorrow, though.

Like with the big ATs, all guns are prone to overkill. Maybe even more so because they hardly ever caused explosions. The high ROF of Flaks could be a disadvantage in this case, since it repeatedly wasted a lot of ammo on already dead vehicles. I needed to manual switch targets to overcom this.

Frontal armor of some ACs (Dingo, Stuart Recon) could sometimes stand up against 20mm Flak at ranges as close as 500m. These vehicles were mostly lost as a result of freak shots, immobilization and/or demoralized crew bailed a vehicle that has been hammered for some time.

For some reason M20 managed twice to get to point blank range of the 20mm single Flak (weak AI?)

As expected, the Stuart recon was the hardest to kill. It is basically invincible to 20mm Flak, unless hammered continously. It was also continually mistaken for a fully-fledged Stuard tank by my gunners. As a trecked-vehicle, it is also faster off-road tha ACs.

The M20 proved tougher than expected. While it was easily taken out by Paks36&38 and the 37mm Flak, it could repeatedly get as close as 500m or less before being destroyed by the 20mm. However it was possible for me to kill a stationary M20 at 1000m with the 20mm.

In addition, the Pak38 while in general effective up to ranges of 1500m+ (as expected), repeatedly ceased firing at the M20, even after ordered to fire. Not sure, maybe considers it an 'unworthy' target?

Conclusion:

I can only speak for myself, but it generally confirmed what I experienced in battles before.

ACs are no tanks. They can be killed by guns as light as 20mm. But this is less the shortcoming of the vehicle than the advantage of the Flak (high ROF, difficult to detect).

On the other hand ACs can very well survive being hit by a light gun. Frontal armor of 30mm or speeding from cover to cover, avoid getting hit (more than once) increases the survivability alot.

Scout cars in combination with infantry can help detecting guns, even if it only means light guns at ranges of 500m or less (question: is it worth it?).

For the allies, they might consititute a cheap way to have mobile MG platforms.

Maybe the most effective way is to use them on larger maps as quick forward scouts, popping over ridges, or poking around edges of woods to check for obvious threats like tanks, then pulling back. Can help to get an early picture of the enemy when infantry takes too long to get there.

Or whatever... :cool:

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by Skippy:

Second, can British/American fast TDs sub in as scouts or is that a gross misuse?

NEVER use TDs as scouts! They are FAR TOO VALUABLE for that! (Well, actually you can, but you can use FOs as scouts as well - just doesn't make any sense )

Use TDs for what they are. Tank killers - nothing more, nothing less.

[JasonC]

I did a realistic test instead of the one Nemesis recommended.

Italy, October 1943, Brit armor parent combined arms vs. German infantry division combined arms, 500 point level, typical Italian - rural, moderate hills, moderate woods - makes for quite hilly and rocky. Brit attack mission. Brits took -

Motor rifle company

Sherman V

3 Humbler III AC

4.5 inch radio FO

Germans had a poor computer picked force with a puppchen, a 75mm leIG, a 81mm mortar halftrack the AI doesn't know how to use, a 75mm spotter, several misplaced AT minefields, quite modest regular infantry (like a 4 squad platoon I think), 1 HMG 42 and 1 LMG 42.

First thing I notice is the Humblers are quite slow on rocky. I'm working up a slope but out of LOS so it is livable. The Sherman isn't that much better and actually bogs on the rocks at one point, but frees itself after 2 minutes. On open they are speedy and haev good response times etc.

I send the platoons all on line, right center and left. Center gets the Sherman with the company HQ and FO riding it. One Humbler goes right (it is green), and the other two center, either side of the Sherman. The left is too heavily wooded for vehicles.

I stop on seeing the mortar halftrack, with fires at a few things with its MG but accomplishes nothing. Vehicles still slow on the rocks so I PIAT goes for it - there is a wood approach to like 30m away, it is just past a crest etc. But it takes a while. I pick up infantry on the way and firefight them - the first folds like a bitty baby to the fire mission of 2 2 inch mortars, plus 1 squad and 1 HQ. Most of a platoon is past the next unit seen before spotting him, in woods - the FO. He brings down fire on his own position but is soon taken out.

Around the same time, first Humbler crests to the right off all this, passed the mortar SPW on its left flank and KOs it with one shot. Useful, that "15mm MG". Range was like 40m. Then it draws fire from both guns and reverses, getting off a couple shots at infantry and safely back out of sight.

Another peeks past woods on my right and gets LOS near but not to the leIG, and area fires at it. Turns into a flag. Once the Sherman pins it advances to LOS of the thing, avoiding puppchen LOS, and spends 3 minutes making sure with HE, before seeing the crew crawling off. Sherman is credited with the kill at the end, but the Humbler got a useful assist in the form of the first pinning fire.

That same Humbler tries its luck getting same kind of set up vs. the puppchen, but pulls out too far and gets nailed at 250m, KOed. Meantime the 4.5 inch repositions and calls a mission on the puppchen, arrival time 7 minutes (rather long, really).

Over on my left I have trouble with one German shooter catching most of a platoon moving across a meadow - sloppy but didn't think he could be that far forward. Lost half a dozen guys, the rest get back to cover and the 2 inch puts in smoke etc. I send the Humbler that dodged the shells at the crest over to help them. He pulls up to 80m away and fires, pins the thing in a minute or two, platoon recrosses and finishes it off. Definitely helpful there.

Following up he helps that platoon forward to the left side main German position. The whole side is heavily wooded and he is snaking through trees to get short LOS and staying buttoned. Most of the Germans fall to standard many on few infantry tactics - whole platoon on the near guy, then one moves to grenade range, when he runs switch to the next guy etc. The Humbler gets LOS to the HMG-42 at 93m distance. That close the HMG can and does hole it, and the crew bails after the swiss cheeze sound.

After the 4.5 inch fire mission - half the module - remaining Sherman and last Humbler come out to the German side of the ridge and down to the low ground etc. No remaining problems. 4.5 inch does one lift (2 minute adjust time livable) and breaks what little resistence remains. Infantry had some fun in the center bypassing Germans, finding them shooting them in the back, turning around and firing with everybody and capturing them the next minute - typical woods fighting stuff. After 4.5 inch shells and Sherman and Humbler MGs, and facing 2 converging platoons of infantry still with ammo, the remaining Germans fold rapidly, only 2-3 occasions of a single shooter firing 1-2 times before the kitchen sink falls on them.

Verdict - they did a lot for 99 points. 9 infantry, an SPW, and a useful pin-assist vs. an leIG. They are not MG proof at close range. I'd say yeah, effective and underpriced, but nothing magical. And the right counter is light flak, as I said.

(Nem said in email) "1) Few opponents take flak guns. Seriously."

Few people take Humbler III scout cars. But they are useful. A quad 20 flak costs the same and dishes out at least as much punishment. Mobility is better for the car obviously.

(Nem said in email) "2) If the enemy has either armor or flak guns, your ACs just get committed at the end of the game instead of at the beginning."

Um, they don't advertize themselves with giant flashing neon signs. You find out a guy has flak when he decides to unmask them because he likes how much they can currently see.

Bottom line is that the Humbler is a bargain for the firepower involved but is not particularly a scout vehicle. More a substitute for British not having useful foot MG teams - like an MMG carrier really, with a stronger gun but lower total firing time. (The 100 ammo burns at 2 per shot etc).

[Inola]

I found one Soviet unit in BB very interesting. MG17 HT with 4 50 cal HMGs. It is very vunerable to MG42 and MG34, but when used keyholed, they can stop advancement of even a company. It is expensive unit, but have excellent firepower. I decided to use it more in my next battles.

[Baron von Beergut]

Unless used as infantry support, AC's for scouting are really "recon by death".

[jBrereton]

I have played about 150 opponents & faced (and beat) just about all the great ones. I encounter 20mm or 37mm cannons in about 1 attack in 4. Even if they are there, I might lose an AC and then they will lose a gun. So what? Even trade. Bring up the next AC.

What happens when they have, say, three or so 37mm flak guns placed overlapping their fields of fire, though?

Bit more difficulty involved that "one AC for one flak gun", no?

Also--this is only one attack scheme among many. I might come at you infantry heavy, armor heavy, artillery heavy, mortar heavy, gun heavy, with a truly CA force--you name it. In those scenarios, your 20mm or 37mm cannon will do exactly nothing. That is why most people don't take them in the first place. They are AC killers and most people don't use ACs....

Flak weapons are also extremely useful for pinning down infantry, though, as well as good AC killers.

True, they can be poor if the enemy has a lot of artillery, but, to be honest, seeing as you claim that they're crap, surely you'll target something else instead, and the flak'll casually pick off a soldier here and there, and break up the odd attack.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by jBrereton:

What happens when they have, say, three or so 37mm flak guns placed overlapping their fields of fire, though?

Bit more difficulty involved that "one AC for one flak gun", no?

If they all fire at the same target at the same time, and given the high chance of overkill by light guns and that I can detect 37mm at around 500m, I'd say you could probably end up with 3 dead flak guns for the price of 1 AC.

Flak weapons are also extremely useful for pinning down infantry, though, as well as good AC killers.

That's true. Excellent for pinning squads. Drawback is their vulnerability to mortars, artillery and such. But useful nonetheless.

[Nemesis Lead]

If your opponent has multiple flak guns, then your ACs will die. Flak Guns are Rocks and ACs are Scissors (and Rocks crush Scissors).

I am not arguing that point.

HOWEVER, I have never run into an opponent who had multiple flak guns barring my axis of attack. Even if your opponent has 3 flak guns on a large map (rare), what are the chances that all 3 will confront your axis of advance? They will be lucky to confront you with 2....

Frankly, all this talk of light flak is misguided. The EVEN BIGGER and FAR MORE RELEVANT threat to ACs is enemy armor.

But again, if you run into flak or tanks, your ACs just get committed later in the game rather than earlier.....

[Bruceov]

Try playing Brit and using aecII ACs if u can get them cheaply enough. They can kill a tiger

[Cuirassier]

"But again, if you run into flak or tanks, your ACs just get committed later in the game rather than earlier....."

Which would bring us a full circle then and determine that AC's can't scout, unless circumstances are unrealistically favorable.

[PFMM]

I think there is a misconception of armoured cars and their like as scouting vehicles.

They are no less easy to spot than a tank, they can't handle alot of terrain that a tracked one can, they are less armoured and less armed than a tank.

They are used by scouting formations simply for the reason that they are cheap to build and cheap to operate, more reliable than a tank,faster to move from location to location and better than nothing at all.

I'm fairly certain that any recce formation coming under fire would have wished for a tank, a big tank, to come to their aid.

If you go exposing them to serious enemy fire you've only go yourself to blame.

[birdstrike]

AC does not equal scout car.

There are dedicated scout cars with low cost and firepower, they are ACs but cheap and expendable.

If I decide to use scout cars, I do not expect them to survive the battle. They are plain bait, check for mines or look for tanks and obvious threats. They find something out and get killed ("recon by bang") or manage to retreat and stay in reserve. They are not useful for real combat.

"Real" ACs have more firepower and are much more useful against infantry or other ACs. They can be used for scouting, but that would be a waste of points - I think everyone here agreed on that. They are used in safe areas to support infantry. Or in some cases to attack a tank from its flanks. In any such case, I would already know where the enemy is. No scouting by the AC involved.

Then again, there are cases in which I know something, but not enough to risk sending in a high-value tank.

For instance:

one of my infantry squads gets shot by an MG and I have no sufficient infantry assets to surpress the gun or the squad has limited ammo or it is armed only with SMGs and target is too far away, etc.

Usually I would consider using a tank for support, but because I don't know wether an enemy ATG is hiding somewhere in the back, I decide to send in an AC.

If the enemy has something like a flak, he might kill my AC, given the flak can see my AC. That's a fair trade-off. He invested points in the gun, I took a risk by exposing my AC. I might even be able to spot the shooting gun or it hits my AC but doesn't cause much damage and the AC can reverse behind cover.

If he doesnt' have a flak, but a full-grown ATG, he can decide whether a lone AC is worth exposing his heavy artillery, or leave it be.

In that case, the AC will perform as intended, pins or kills the MG and enables my infantry to advance further.

I don't see much problem with such a tactic as long as I'm willing to accept the risks involved.

The sole reason for this maneuver was to keep my tank out of trouble, not because it wouldn't have been been useful, but because my personal assessment of the situation told me an AC is sufficient for the job and I decided I would rather lose an AC than a tank.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Skippy:

What's the best way to scout with vehicles or light tanks, specifically what movement orders should they be issued? Fast move to be harder to hit or contact so they're more cautious?

When it is appropriate to buy and use these scouting vehicles instead of just using half-squads?

When is it better to use an AC (Puma, Greyhound, BA-10, etc) instead of a Lt Tank (Stuart, T70, PzII, etc)? Can the Western Allies' fast TDs "sub in" for this role?

Thanks.

Though you´d asked for particular tactics to be used in the CM game, I would like to point you to an interesting article dealing with german reccon tactics and employment of reccon in WW2 from US point of view:

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/articles/GermanRecce/GeRecce_USview.html

The same site holds another article focused on german reccon units, both in Inf. and Armor Divisions:

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/articles/GermanRecce/GeReccBtl.html

A lot of the real stuff still works well in the CM game, WHEN conditions are right, but many players and scenario designers tend to use AC´s inappropiately as expendable units. If the battle map is large, AC´s as well as half track borne reccon infantry is useful to cover open flanks against surprises and watch out for enemy actions, but usually they´re only strong enough to deal with enemy forces of equal or inferior quality (and numbers). That off course depends upon particular composition of your reccon force. Germans also had "heavy" reccon support units that can give a considerable boost to a reccon forces attack/defense capability, but in the case of the historic employment these were normally employed for "reccon in force" missions, when observation and just finding the enemy was not sufficient. German armor battailons and regiments usually had their reccon platoons, which were usually composed of the same (or lighter) vehicles as the "fighting" platoons, but it´s likely due to shortages in vehicles that this luxury was kept up for long during the war, when normal combat armor platoons were sent for (battle) reconnaissance instead. AC´s and tanks were mixed only when particular (german) "battle groups" were put together for special missions (Vorausabteilung) or in emergency situations, which were plenty later in the war. Can´t tell much about US, CW and Soviet armored recon tactics and employment of armored recon units, but I think they´re not much different from the german ones.

As had been said by other board members already, even if the enemy has no AT guns or armor, a standard HMG (MG34/42, 30cal Browning, Vickers, Maxim ect. assumed to use AP shots) is able to kill your light scout cars/halftracks at close ranges (below 300m I think)! That means, even if the enemy player posesses AT guns/armor, he is not forced to reveal his units, if a HMG can do the job dealing with your light recon vehicles instead! Also AC´s (or other reccon vehicles) should be used at least in pairs, so that one unit moving has at least some support from another unit overwatching.

Beside the above said; If you know strengths and weaknesses of particular units, there´s actually no rule how to employ these and "sacrificing" units is a valid "tactic". Depends all upon playing style and preferences.