Scouting with Armored Cars or Lt Tanks

[Skippy]

What's the best way to scout with vehicles or light tanks, specifically what movement orders should they be issued? Fast move to be harder to hit or contact so they're more cautious?

When it is appropriate to buy and use these scouting vehicles instead of just using half-squads?

When is it better to use an AC (Puma, Greyhound, BA-10, etc) instead of a Lt Tank (Stuart, T70, PzII, etc)? Can the Western Allies' fast TDs "sub in" for this role?

Thanks.

[Sergei]

While armoured cars were used for recon, it happened outside a battlefield. In Combat Mission you already know that the enemy is within arm's reach, so recon has been done. They have just enough armour and armament to hold their own against infantry and enemy AC's, but that's it. If you have them in a battle, you shouldn't think of them as scouts. They can be useful as a mobile reserve, or to support infantry if the enemy has no ATG's, or sometimes even tank destroyer substitute (Puma for instance). But don't use them as scouts. They'll just die quick.

[birdstrike]

They can be used for scouting, in terms of revealing enemy gun positions when they are blasted to bits.

Unless the your opponent doesn't want your ACs roaming around, annoying his infantry, he needs at least more than an HMG to take them out, which in turn gives you the chance to destroy the gun(s) before your 'real' armored assets show up.

Sometimes it's better to sacrifice a Dingo instead of a Firefly. But then again, you don't need a Pak40 to kill a Dingo...

[Nemesis Lead]

Birstrike is right. You give your opponent a choice. Either he allows you to mow down his infantry with an AC or he kills your AC and reveals an AT Gun. The AC is FIRST an infantry support vehicle and SECOND a sacrificial lamb to discover the location of enemy AT defenses. The idea is that overwatching mortars then slam the AT Gun and you have just made a trade with your opponent that is favorable to you.

Of course, this plan blows up in your face if he kills you with an armored vehicle or he kills you with a really cheap AT Gun (e.g., a 20mm cannon).

You have to be especially careful to keep your AC far enough back that your opponent cannot kill you with handheld infantry weapons (to lose an AC like this is inexcusable as you should have an infantry screen out front). Force him to hit you with something heavy. You also have to make sure that the AC you buy cannot be easily killed by HMG or AT rifle fire.

This brings us to purchasing.....you are also wise to look at the economics of your purchases. Some ACs are just too expensive to risk to kill a 50 point 50mm PAK. Some cannot stand up to HMG/ATR fire. Stick with the REALLY cheap ones with at least 15mm of armor.

The British Humber III with 2 machine guns is probably the ideal AC purchase in CMAK for the purpose described above. Tons of MG ammo, HMG and ATR proof, cheap as a dimestore watch, and kills infantry like there is no tomorrow.

A Greyhound or Puma would be way too expensive to risk in the manner described above (in my doctrine, they fill different roles). Most halftracks cannot stand up to HMG and ATR fire and would have to be discarded as well.

[ November 17, 2006, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Nemesis Lead ]

[dieseltaylor]

All this talk but nothing on terrain!

My take is that the question should be discussed after you have said how big the battlefield is, how much town do you have, weather etc.

I have never tested it but I imagine AC's with two drivers reverse a damm sight faster than anything else particularly on road. In town fighting this may be a worthwhile trick as at short range any hit is likely to be a kill o normal tanks.

I have found in fog that AC's can be painful as infantry really do not like meeting them at say 100 metres if they have no ranged AT ability. Of course you having plenty of long range ATG's in fog does not help much.

If you are playing combined arms parameters you may well lean to buying some. There are some very interesting oddball choices late in the war. The Littlejohn adaptor, AC's with masses of smoke shells.

I agree with other theories posted before me. : )

[JasonC]

It is a stupid AI trick. It doesn't know what to open up with, when, at what, etc. So it will show its heaviest ATGs to a tin can. Humans don't, and there are plenty of stealthy shooters that kill tin cans. Light armor scouting plain doesn't work against anything but the brain dead AI - send a half squad. If you are going to scout with armor, use something thick enough that the thing that fires at it will be seen back. Light flak, ATRs, swPzB, etc, won't be.

[PFMM]

If you're going to scout with vehicles, scout with meanest, toughest one you have and as many of them as you can muster. Bring friends.

If he shows his face, crush him.

Stop thinking you can win by poking with your fingers, they are easily broken.

[birdstrike]

Arr, I should play more against humans...

However, being mostly an Allied player myself, I see a problem there:

Germans don't necessarily need a big gun to take out most allied armor. A Pak38 can kill a Sherman at 500 yards. The only tank with thick enough armor on allied side I can think of now, would be the Churchill, which is only available for the British.

And at distances of 1000 yards and more, even bigger guns, such as Pak40s can get away with shooting a couple of times without being detected.

This basically means, only the the 30mm and the 37mm flak or Pak36 can be considered as 'AC-only' killers.

Moving forward massed armor is a nice idea, but depends on game-scale, terrain and the densitiy of enemy AT-concentration. 3-4 medium-heavy ATs with decent fields of fire can destroy ALOT, before being taken out. And at a price of around 25 points for a cheap AC, I can afford to lose quite a number of them compared to a single M4 at around 130 points.

Sacrificing a 130-point Sherman to kill a 50-point Pak38 or a 80-point Pak40, or maybe even a 30-point 75-mm howitzer, just doesn't add up for me. On the other hand losing an M20 to a 20-mm flak is still 25-point wasted, yet less painful.

And I can still move forward a bigger tank by then if I desire to do so (Probably only to see it blown to bits by another ATG ).

That said, Half-squads for scouting are definitely a must-have, you don't really need anything else but infantry for scouting. But bringing along an AC now and then doesn't necessarily have to be a bad idea. Especially for surpressing enemy MGs that pin the scouting half squads .

[JasonC]

50mm PAK don't kill Shermans from the front, in practice. With APCR and a turret hit it is possible, but realistically they need flank shots.

Heavy PAK kill when then open up. You cannot avoid that, period. The reason is, a human simply will not fire unless the shot will kill. And they don't fire at AC anythings, unless they already showed themselves to kill something more serious.

ACs die to light stuff that gives only a sound contact. Or they get killed by vehicles that top hat into LOS of them and not the rest of the world, then move. Infantry do not fire at them at all. The information gained against a human rather than the AI is therefore negligible, and the AC is still lost.

The right way to use ACs is to keyhole around cover, splitting up enemy areas with MG lanes over open ground. They can watch a flank you aren't advancing on, and pin enemy scouts who don't have heavy weapons. And to bring them out late to hose enemy infantry positions whose heavy AT cover has already been smashed. But they are useless at dismantling that heavy AT cover themselves.

Armor does not just waltz into areas you know the enemy has LOS to from many covered locations, not if it can help it. (Scenarios that require it are shooting galley affairs). When they advance it is because there isn't anything for them to kill where they are, or to get full spots against stealthy shooters holding up the infantry.

And they then need to do so with a whole platoon to overwatch each other. If a gun opens up it will get a kill, but it has to be heavy enough to get through real armor. If it is heavy enough for that, it will also be spotted. Heavy PAK are spotted rapidly at almost any range that actually occurs on CM maps. The rest of the platoon then has to beat that lone PAK with its replies.

Many things help that happen. The PAK can miss for a few shots. It can penetrate but fail to kill due to poor behind armor effect. It can overkill the first target because of a long death clock. It can spend too much time rotating instead of shooting, after the first tank hit. It can be pinned by a good reply round early or by the intensity of all the vehicle MGs. In CMAK, misses short can blind it with dust.

A tank *platoon* expects to be able to advance on single PAK and win against them, sometimes losing a vehicle and sometimes not. The costs and odds are right for that trade, in attrition terms. It is "par", it is livable.

A single tank can't advance on anything heavy, unless it is uber vs. most of the enemy AT weapons, and even then it typically needs to be keyholed. Tiger Is against undermodeled 1943 Russians are about the only exception, and they are only a partial one. (Some tankers are so bad that is all they can drive, as a result).

A full tank platoon can't afford to walk into a *kill sack* where *every single enemy heavy AT weapon* can hit them simultaneously. But there can only be a modest number of those on any map. Defenders need coverage, and integration in one spot comes at the cost of no integration elsewhere.

Kill sacks have to be smelled out in head games, not found by driving a tin can into them - because kill sacks have all weapons available and therefore stealthy light can openers as well. The AI only makes them by accident and doesn't hold fire properly etc. Kill sacks are flanked, or the firing positions are blasted with fire missions and area fire HE barrages before anything show itself (anticipation fire), etc.

Real scouting happens as a full platoon of infantry 50-100m behind a point half squad or two. That is able to outshoot the light single shooters that can stop a lone half squad, and able to replace it as soon as it dies. Stealthy shooters can pin them in the open but not hurt them seriously in cover, and a new units advances to the next patch etc. Delays but does not stop.

Any real position will stop a scouting infantry platoon. That is OK - just as real armor means the thing that kills you can be seen when it does it, a real position that stops an infantry platoon creates a point of attack for your own heavier weapons.

A scout platoon *sees* only stealth-less assets like tanks and bunkers. But the threat of it walking straight over units forces someone to fire at it. It is an actual threat - sufficient infantry at close range both sees stuff and kills it. MG light armor is pure invitation, threatening nothing. It can be left to sit there forever without any consequence - if it drives far enough forward it just ensures the stuff that kills it won't be remotely visible from the enemy main body.

Give up the idea that light armor is for scouting. It is a specific counter to infantry only forces, without even any towed guns. Those appear on the battlefield as advanced positions where nothing else has arrived (or was risked so far forward, less often), or as worked over ones where nothing else is left alive. Light armor is not the specific counter to AT networks - they are in fact an AT network's natural prey.

[JasonC]

P.S. Sergei already got all this right in the first reply. Seeing his I thought there was no reason for comment from me, he had already answered the question correctly. But since I now see doubters disputing it, I explain the reasons why he is right.

One can get the other impression from the AI, as explained. That is one reason the error persists. The other is a bizarre doctrinal anticipation from light armor appearing on the TOE of higher echelon "recce" units. People think it must be its function to find everything for them.

Wrong scale. Operational recce units have light armor to reposition rapidly, and to patrol large areas against weak infantry only opposition. They flood a road net with a few vehicles per side road, and want enough along to blow past a mere listening post or scout. If they ever hit a position with serious AT weapons, they halt and consider themselves done - they have found the enemy battle position. In the meantime they will harass it with mortars etc.

[Nemesis Lead]

Skippy,

Re-read my post. I am 38 wins, 1 loss and 3 ties in ladder play on Band of Brothers and Strategy Zone Online (and I am in first place on both ladders). My advice is backed by real results.

JasonC reads a lot of books, but is by no means anything more than an average CM player. He can only parrot back what he has read in his books.

Cheap, MG-armed ACs are excellent infantry support weapons (again do not use expensive cannon-armed variants). As a secondary function, they reveal enemy AT defenses cheaply.

I agree with Jason C in the sense that they are NOT truly scouts since they are operating behind an infantry screen (infantry half squads always go first). They ARE scouts in the sense that you want the enemy to fire his AT weapons at them first (rather than your expensive tanks which should only be committed when you are confident you have breached the enemy's AT Gun network).

And I should have added--you should never expose more than 1 AC at a time. The idea is to lose a 40 point AC (NOT 2) and kill an AT Gun or a horde of infanty in return. Once that AC dies and you kill the AT Gun, send another AC forward. Your opponent will run out of AT Guns before you run out of ACs. If he chooses not to fire at you, you will massacre his infantry.

However, there is real risk to this approach. You CANNOT do this if you think the enemy has armor present. If the enemy has armor present, deal with it with your own armor/guns (if you are able) or try to manuever your infantry close to the enemy's tanks by using cover and smoke. In this case, your ACs cannot be committed until later in the game when the enemy armor has been eliminated.

Enemy light AT guns are also an issue, but many players don't use these. ATRs and HMGs can be an issue, but your AC should be chosen to prevent this from happening (15mm of armor works best).

[ November 18, 2006, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Nemesis Lead ]

[JasonC]

Nemesis' enemies apparently are too stupid to take light flak. Light armor kills infantry yes, that is what it is for. If dumb people open on them with nothing else in view with full PAK, then well they are dumb people. Some stupid AI tricks may extend to people as dumb as the AI.

[birdstrike]

Well, I don't want to question JasonC's authority on this issue, since he is right in what he said. And I neither take light armor myself to attack and clear out AT positions nor do I recommend it. If this somehow came across in what I said, I stand corrected.

But all realisim aside, since we know of the restriction of the game engine, I see a certain, if limited, use of scoutcars in the game. This is not to be meant to be a gamey exploit, but a possible usage of the lightly armored vehicles that are easily neglected otherwise. (Or maybe I'm playing on too small maps. Or with too few units. )

I'd say spending a few points for 1-2 scoutcars in a 1500 point battle is affordable (if desired).

And, I want to reiterate that only guns in the 20mm and 37mm range are 'true' dedicated AC killers (the 50-mm is debatable, but I would rather consider it a threat to tanks than not). Therefore, unless my AC does not happen to run into the LOF of a such light gun, the defender's choice remains to either let it have its way, or kill it with a decent ATG (if he's stupid - and why not give it a try to see if he is? ).

If he has a light gun, that kills the scoutcar, fine, let him have it. 30 points are sustainable. (I could as well lose a a sharpshooter to a mine or a stray shot.)

If my scouting infantry (preferably moving ahead of the AC) is close enough, I might just get an idea from where the shot came from. Call in some mortar fire, and we're even.

If the shooter remains hidden, there is still a chance of the AC surviving a hit or not getting hit at all. (If we take the possibility of heavy guns missing or not causing damage to tanks into account, the same holds true for light guns and ACs)

The real question is: what advantage does the use of scoutcars have over the use of only infantry?

I don't see them as major threat to enemy infantry, more of an annoyance that can't be killed with rifles (good enough to cause some damage, but tanks with HE are the real infantry killers). They are more easily detectable, can be taken out by a single hit, often have few ammo and low firepower and their speed very much depends on ground conditions.

On the other hand they are less vulnerable to low-caliber off-board artillery or mortars (unless open-topped). They are less likely to get stopped by MG fire (unless the commander gets hit). They are very fast on raods and dry ground. They can force the enemy to buy light guns - points that are not spent in buying guns able to counter the tanks that I really need.

That's not very much, but too not bad for a few points. If I see no need for them I spend the points in something better, but time and again I feel the urge to use them, after all it's a matter of preference.

[jBrereton]

Nemesis, when CMx2 comes, your tactics won't work. Your victories seem to be the result of your infantry spotting your enemies and your MG armed ACs doing the grunt work.

Since ACs mostly have very, very poor vision slits when buttoned up, they are no use at all for scouting in real life, or really even for support, when the bullets start flying.

They're suitable for long-range patrols and scouting. They're not much for actual fighting in real life due to their frailty.

Even in CM, a decent player shouldn't have any problem with your tactics to be honest. If any of them took light AT or flak, your ACs would be buggered, and if light flak was taken then your infantry would be too.

[Inola]

In ME you can buy a scoutcar which has transport abitity, and move some infantry guns to the positions you consider to be "keys". 75 mm inf. gun (German), and 76.2 mm regimental guns are sutable for this role- you get a lot of HE for a little price. And then you can use carriers to harass (this is their main role in ME) the advancing enemy infantry. The only thing, opponents tries to have "no guns in ME" rule after some games.

[jBrereton]

Inola - won't work if you're playing someone capable, they'll take steps like, say, bringing tanks with them, to stop such things occuring.

Because when a transport comes up against even a light tank, it's going to have its cargo blown to smithereens along with it.

[Nemesis Lead]

Originally posted by jBrereton:

Nemesis, when CMx2 comes, your tactics won't work. Your victories seem to be the result of your infantry spotting your enemies and your MG armed ACs doing the grunt work.

Since ACs mostly have very, very poor vision slits when buttoned up, they are no use at all for scouting in real life, or really even for support, when the bullets start flying.

They're suitable for long-range patrols and scouting. They're not much for actual fighting in real life due to their frailty.

Even in CM, a decent player shouldn't have any problem with your tactics to be honest. If any of them took light AT or flak, your ACs would be buggered, and if light flak was taken then your infantry would be too.

Mr. Brereton,

1) But we are not playing (or even talking about) CMX2 are we? But to indulge you...maybe in CMX2 area fire will be more effective than it is in CM? Perhaps ACs will be even MORE powerful?

2) I have played about 150 opponents & faced (and beat) just about all the great ones. I encounter 20mm or 37mm cannons in about 1 attack in 4. Even if they are there, I might lose an AC and then they will lose a gun. So what? Even trade. Bring up the next AC.

Also--this is only one attack scheme among many. I might come at you infantry heavy, armor heavy, artillery heavy, mortar heavy, gun heavy, with a truly CA force--you name it. In those scenarios, your 20mm or 37mm cannon will do exactly nothing. That is why most people don't take them in the first place. They are AC killers and most people don't use ACs....

Demonstrations can always be arranged for the non-believers.

[ November 18, 2006, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Nemesis Lead ]

[JasonC]

Utter rot. Light AA is way more useful than that.

Light AAs first mission is simply AA. Then they do light armor. Then they have anti infantry firepower at least equal to an HMG. And they don't cost appreciably more (the singles cost -less-, but I prefer the ones that hit harder). Their only downside compared to foot MG teams is lacking slow infantry move repositioning ability. They never lack for targets they are useful against.

sPzB are also stealthy enough. They will hole real tanks with flank shots.

Russian mountain guns and German infantry guns sometimes also do light armor work, but their main role is to beat up infantry. Those you will actually spot when they fire. They will also KO more than the one AC when they do. Then the balance sheet reads -1 30 point gun vs. -1 AC, a squad to a platoon messed up, and a mortar or two gone dry countering. Not a trade the attacker can keep up.

The heavier light AA types are close enough range, you will also spot. They also serious mess up infantry and do the AA mission. Reverse slope deployments are all they need to stay alive for the AA role and pick off scouts as they crest places, LOS-separated from their overwatch.

When there is any AFV which is usually, again the light armor dies to little purpose etc.

You never have to fire with a 50-80 point heavy PAK just to KO a piece of light armor. It is a stupid AI trick. If an MG only piece of armor is shooting a squad and there isn't a vehicle or light shooter that can deal with it, the squad skulks. That is all.

As for taking a few with transport ability, sure I do that all the time. Carriers for allies, SPWs for Germans, just a couple. They move mortars and towed guns by relay. They keyhole to cut up sections of open ground (preventing infantry repositioning I mean), and they come out late to hose things after the AT net is smashed. What they don't do is scout.

As for hanging back behind an infantry screen that does the real scouting, yes exactly. Real armor does that and also kills the stuff that shoots up the infantry.

The right counter to all this stuff is the same, send a real tank in the first place.

[Nemesis Lead]

I see more and more why you are an average player, JasonC. You speak of theory while I speak of tactics that the best CM players use to win games. I didn't invent these tactics, I learned them from playing the best players and making my own modifications.

Send a real tank you say? Then you risk losing 130 points or more. Tanks versus AT Guns are (generally) akin to Rock versus Paper. A lousy trade. You even advocate the mass use of tanks. Now you are risking losing several hundred points (or more). Downright foolish.

And BTW....a 20mm cannon is NOT the equivalent of an HMG. It is FAR less survivable. A HMG can soak up huge amounts of firepower and keep fighting. All it needs is 1 man in the MG team to pull the trigger. A 20mm cannon, OTOH, can be knocked out with a single mortar firing for 1 turn. The 20mm cannon may have some other advantages (as you rightly point out), but these are less relevant if the 20mm cannon is not surviveable. The lack of survivability is only 1 reason you see 20 MG42s for every 20mm cannon in CM....

Also...a player does not have to be an "idiot" to engage an AC with a heavy AT Gun. He can be forced into it. If my (numerically superior) infantry fights your infantry AND I am backed by ACs....all else being equal, I will eventually break through and your AT Guns will have to deal with my infantry/AC teams. This happens all the time....

[ November 18, 2006, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Nemesis Lead ]

[JasonC]

So show me. I've got the set up, you provide the email and it is sent.

[Nemesis Lead]

Will send you a PM.

[Skippy]

Ok, since we appear to be in a deadlock on the "when/whether to use ACs" question, let's move on to my questions which remain unanswered:

Assuming that I already have ACs (in a scenario or, heck, I decide to get an answer for myself) - what movement orders do I issue? Fast? Contact?

Second, can British/American fast TDs sub in as scouts or is that a gross misuse?

Talk amongst yourselves.

[JasonC]

Nem didn't like the set up and decided to pass, so I played it against the AI.

I had -

brigade 42A infantry company (12 squads each 12 men, 4 HQs, no weapons) -

regulars

2 Maxim MMG - veteran

1 50 cal HMG - regular (I considered a pair of vet PTRS ATRs instead, better

vs. light armor actually)

2 76mm mountain guns

1 37mm AA gun

green T-34 platoon, early 1943 model (Russians green 1942 without radios,

but armor and guns etc).

4 trenches

and last but not least, 300mm rocket support, conscript quality.

I planned to use the last for a turn 4-5 spoiling barrage, anticipating plenty of infantry and light armor under the footprint.

I gave it -

3 StuG F late (80mm front and 75L48, "uber" to my T-34s)

4 PSW late (8mm turret but 30mm hull, 20mm and 42 MG ammo each)

2 panzergrenadier companies, total 18 2 LMG squads, 8 HMGs, 4 81mm mortars

(and 10 HQs)

1 105mm FO

Naturally it did not know how to use such a force. The StuGs still got 2 of the T-34s and KOed the mountain guns. I lost 23 men all told, out of 208 - 7 to StuGs counting T-34 crew, 4 to PSWs, 6 to infantry and 6 to HMGs. In turn I ran the table on vehicles and mortars and hit 213 out of 324 men.

My box score on losses inflicted -

300mm - 28 infantry, 2 81mm, M-Kill one StuG, M-Kill 2 PSW (fired turn 5,

not particularly well)

T-34s - lost 2, survivor got 27 infantry, 1 PSW, and finished off the

M-Killed StuG and an M-Killed PSW

2x76mm - 1 StuG, 1 PSW, 1 81mm, 3 infantry

37mm AA - 1 StuG, 1 81mm, 27 infantry (!) - (StuG was a stupid AI trick

though, it turned sideways etc).

2xMaxims - 27 infantry

50 cal - 1 PSW, 3 infantry

2 squad and HQ OP left, 2 trenches behind a wall - 52 infantry for a loss of 2

2 squad and HQ OP right, in 3 tiles of full woods - 45 infantry for a loss of 11

rear area infantry main body barely engaged, got 12 men for a loss of 3.

My position was at a village with a reasonably large wood on the left near the back of the map, with a large flag there, another on the right in a less defensible place, and 2 small ones in the middle, one mid-village and one between it and the left side woods. I decided to defend mostly the left side woods with OPs forward and a supporting position in the village.

The 2 76mm went on a ridge on my left, ahead of the main objective to site across the map at about 45 degrees. Front one was in a single full woods tile, next about 100m to its right in a trench in the open.

The 37mm AA went all the way at the back of the map dead center, looking down a road there, with something of a reverse slope effect from being higher than much of the map. He could see some stuff 800-1000m away, then lost LOS to most areas until about 400m. Could hit the whole village if the Germans entered it.

The 50 cal when in a patch of trees on my right, only real asset over there. Its main mission being light armor flank shots.

The Maxims went, one on the left much like the 50 cal, and the other in the left forward LP (described below).

Conscript rocket FO off on the right rear, call it turn 1 and hide the rest of the battle.

My HQs were very bad, 2 with no bonuses at all including the company HQ, and 2 green again including the company HQ. Other 2 each had 3 +1 bonuses, one of them stealth in each case. Not riveting stuff. One squad was veteran and 2 were green, about average there.

I split them into 2 2 squad OPs with the poor HQs, while the others had full 4 squad platoons. One full platoon went in the large woods around the objective, split to make multiple positions, some treeline and some "skulk", etc. Other full platoon went in the village, with the vet squad in the only stone building, 2 green squads ahead, HQ and one regular back level with it.

The right OP was ahead of the village guys and had the company HQ. There was a reasonable approach route into the village, past a block of 3 full woods just inside my set up line. I put the 2 squads on line at the front of that with the HQ behind them.

The left OP was based on a parallel set of walls ahead of my main woods position, and overlooked by the ridge the 76mm were on. There was an approach route to them based on scattered trees about 60-80m in front of them. I put a trench behind the front wall with 2 full squads in it, one at each end. Behind the second wall I put a second trench, with the HQ on the left behind the rightmost squad, and a Maxim (regular, though paid for as vet) to his right.

All the T-34s went in a "lair" behind the main objective woods, initially out of sight. The HQ tank was conscript quality (joy!). The green wingman faced out of two sally ports from the lair, around its left and diagonally right and forward, respectively.

Rockets ordered for middle of the map at 200m from the German edge for turn 5.

The T-34 on the right side of the lair got into a duel with a StuG early. Given the date, the tankers think these are 50mm front models so they avidly face them. And being radioless green 2 man turret jobs, as soon as they button to fire they command delay jumps to 65 seconds. I told him to reverse and he almost made it, but as he started to move in the minute that started with 5 seconds left to go, he was nailed by the StuGs oh, about 5th shot and KOed. He had bounced 2 off the StuG himself by then.

The 50 cal fired early and often at the PSWs, but at the range and mostly front armor he faced, did not KO them. The 76s stayed silent, 37mm didn't have LOS and did likewise.

I then moved the remaining T-34s around the left side of the lair, to shoot up German infantry over there that lacked any StuG cover.

One StuG went toward the center from my left during the duel with the first T-34. In doing so it showed side aspect to one of the 76s. I let it open up and it bagged it with about 3 shots. It was KOed in turn by one of the remaining StuGs.

Then the rockets came in. They left the StuG that had dueled the first T-34 immobilized, not facing anything too dangerous, and also immobilized 2 of the PSWs (one of them right next to that StuG).

So I had a one StuG full AFV problem remaining, with 2 light guns and 2 T-34s. At that point I figured I had already won - and I certainly did not worry about the PSWs.

The Germans pressured the right OP with their aid, and pinned the forward shooters readily enough. Not before they did some damage, though (they had been on 80m arcs, as was all my infantry initially - MGs free to fire). As more Germans tried to close with them, I just had the next position back open up and one of the Maxims rotate right with a covered arc, and stopped them in the open shy of the OP. Which then recovered some and went to town on the men pinned in the open 40m in front of them. He worked some guys forward toward the left OP too, but it was not threatened yet.

One of the PSWs attacking that OP turned enough of its side to the 50 cal, that I let loose on it again despite being down to 10 ammo. It KOed it with 2 ammo left and went back on a short arc.

I decided to risk one of the T-34s trying to set up a tag team on the last StuG. I picked the conscript HQ for it. He was to exit the lair by the right opening, fast move forward and right, then cut left behind the last StuG - all on fast. The StuG was not facing this way but instead kept coming over to my left trying to get LOS to the other T-34s, messing up German infantry on the left flank. That T-34 reversed back into the lair proper as the StuG came over.

The idea was, if the run worked the T-34 would make the StuG spend its timing turned left, and get behind it and KO it at close range. If it failed, as long as it got far enough the StuG would have to turn left to face it, and that would show its right side to the remaining mountain gun. Which would try to drill it in revenge or first, etc.

Didn't quite work. StuG missed the first shot and I then moved fast enough to set him spinning to track. But the angle wasn't quite "right" enough or the distance close enough, and he was able to retrain and fire again - missed. Third did it though, and the T-34 careened left and brewed up. Meanwhile the mountain gun, on a short vehicle arc, was apparently spotted by one of the PSWs somehow, because it both drew fire and shot at one of them, missing.

The StuG turned back enough after that, seeing it, and I did not have sufficient side angle to hit him. So I left the 76mm firing at the PSWs. It got one then was KOed in turn. Now the armor match up wasn't so nice, with one green T-34 and 1 37mm left, vs. 1 StuG and 1 remaining mobile PSW. There were also still the immobile pair, one StuG and 1 PSW.

So I was arranging another flank run when the AI came through and managed to show side to the 37mm AA. It is a beautiful thing when that happens. The 37mm fired 12 times in 1 minute and got 7 side penetrations. No more StuGs.

All stops off the infantry ammo and the last T-34 comes out of the lair on the left with a long fast move to an open ridge line. He KOs the remaining PSW, a mortar that distracted him, the immobile StuG. Then he happily crawls up to 80m away from the infantry attacking the left OP and blazes away, running his MG ammo dry. Won't use his canister for some reason, ah well, it is gamey anyway.

A few German HMGs left about 150m back in a patch of rocky are the only remaining effective shooters, though infantry remnants are still trying in zombie army of the dead fashion. The OP position is all "low" but still unassailable. The T-34 makes a last move to 60m from this patch of HMGs and routs them all in about 2 minutes.

Meanwhile the 37mm unloads down the road in the middle on whatever gets close to the right OP - a few actually made it into the midst of them as they were pinned, and then broke one squad there. A squad sent forward to help drew fire from the HMGs on the left and broke too, -3 men and out of action for 3-4 minutes. But they have nothing left really. And 7 squads in my main body have barely tensed a muscle.

The AI is easy of course. But it is fast and it accepts a set up when you give it one. You takes your choice.

[PFMM]

Skippy,

You give them pretty much the same move orders you would any other unit, but they have the added advantage of not bogging much, if at all, so you can use fast more often, which in turn makes them usefull as firebrigades, for raiding and for fients.

One use I've read of but never applied is that of seeding them amongst the tanks. I can see possible advantages but i don't know how it would work out in practise.

Seems the dogs are content too bark at each other through the fence once again.

[dieseltaylor]

I agree with Nemisis Lead's more than JCut then I am an unsuccessful 100+ game player : )

All this theorising and AAR is silly if we cannot see the size of the map etc. Terrain is so,so important but of all the topics it gets so little attention. I mentioned using cannon armed ones in towns ....not one reply to the point!

I have had many problems with Greyhounds that have worked themselves, by luck or judgement,into positions that seriously embarrass my plans and troops.

Please note that the importance of AC's is also to do with what bloody use they are so you need every game to consider the effectiveness of what is avialable and where you are fighting- and what the enemy has also.

As I said before AC's normally turn up as Vehicle spend so in certain parameters they are vital.

In Band of Brothers we assisted a psychology student with a test where we were given a period to decide on forces and then the map was revealed and we were asked if we wanted to change our force selection. Terrain and size of map will make so many comments you read here irrelevant.

I have just played the smallest scenario I have ever seen on a 400 metre square map, I personally like huge maps with resulting open flanks for light forces to play on. In the first AC's were cannon fodder, as were the tanks, and in the latter light forces tend to have fun.

As for speed - if you think you are likely to get shot without reward go fast to get behind cover. It will limit the shots fired at you. It does not make any difference to your chances of being hit given the way the engine works. If you want to see things you have to go slow as fast degrades spotting.