DEY's Italians in grigioverde

[Philippe]

Dey has been posting some very interesting mods of Italian vehicles and guns over at CMMODS.

They aren't yellow. They're green.

I'm not sure what the correct response to this should be. If he's right (and I think he is), I'm simply stunned that an error of that magnitude could have persisted for so long.

I came across a couple of interesting Italian vehicle sites when I started the preliminary work for my Italian Units Portrait mod (ETA late 2006).

Sadly, because I was looking for heads, uniforms, and faces I didn't bookmark them. But I seem to recall seeing some pretty unusual camo patterns. If you're going to die because you're using lesser equipment, do it in style.

A quick Google search seemed to turn up modelling discussions of people stating, without giving sources, that the CSIR used green rather than desert yellow. On reflection, we're probably more familiar with images of Italian vehicles that turn up in the desert, hence the greater likelihood of seeing or remembering them in yellow.

Does anyone have any solid information on this? I don't have time to research it at the moment, but there was an awful lot of grigioverde in the Italian language discussions on the web.

A quick comment about making the color of Italian guns blend with Romanians: probably not necessary. If I'm going to play a scenario, I'll put scenario-specific mods in place for each side anyway -- so Italian guns should be as Italian-looking as possible.

I really wish the CSIR had gotten a bit more thorough treatment in CMBB. I would have loved to see Bersaglieri with black plumes, and Alpini with feathers stuck to the sides of their helmets.

[michael_wittman44]

I don't see why the Italians couldn't have used green in Italy while yellow cammo paint on vehicles in the desert. Hmmm green Italian tanks.

[stoat]

From battlefront.co.nz (hmm...what a great name):

The Italian use three different colours to camouflage their tanks. The base colours used were Sabbia (Yellow Sand) used in the desert and Italy in 1943, or Grigio Verde (Grey-Green) in the Balkans and Russia. Grigio Verde and Terracotta (Red-Brown) were used as disruptive colours over Sabbia in Italy, Grigio Verde over Sabbia in North Africa.

Grey-green, not green. And this would seem to be the right color for CMBB.

[DEY]

I got my final inspiration to do this from this thread here,

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=44160

I feel that this Eugenio is credible, he states the color as a more medium green.

I have also seen color drawings depicting this color scheme on the Tankettes, in fact I have a book with a color drawing of a L.6/40 and it is in a lighter green base color.

It appears that the Italians stopped painting in this green color (armor at least) starting in early 1942.

So the green color scheme for the armor and guns has some base in historical fact.

And besides it's an alterative option and choice is always a good thing.

Some interesting stuff on the CSIR and ARMIR,

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63008&start=0

http://fow.flamesofwar.com/viewtopic.php?t=5134&sid=1bafe37672fd56182edaac6d64dc0d1b

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13602&sid=eb75b6fdbe040b1e7fcbb3a8b08ea857

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/__italy.htm

http://forum.boinaslava.net/printthread.php?t=4266

http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/italy/armyinrussia.html

[Gordon]

Well, it may or may not be definitive, but according to "The Eastern Front: Armour Camouflage and Markings, 1941 to 1945", Steven Zaloga and James Grandsen:

Although Italy employed many tank and cavalry units in the anti-partisan role in the Balkans, it made no major contribution of armour elsewhere on the Eastern Front. The only major units were those of the 3 Divisione Celere with its LXVII Battaglione Bersaglieri Corazzato (with L6/40 light tanks) and the XIII Gruppo Semoventi (with a squadron of Semoventi da 47/32).

The L6/40 tanks and the 47/32 Semoventis were finished in dark yellow sand colour overall (giallo sabbia scuro), which proved to be less than ideal in the Russian terrain. As a result, mud was often smeared over the tanks to provide some camouflage.

There's no mention of repainting the vehicles green. That's not to say that it couldn't have happened.

[stoat]

As a result, mud was often smeared over the tanks to provide some camouflage.

I wonder how many times a crew had to "paint" a tank. Probably not too many due to the terrible performance of Italian tanks on the Eastern Front.

[Philippe]

Gordon, what do you think accounts for the difference between Zaloga/Grandsen and the comments in the threads? Could your quote have been referring to first year of the war, with the Italians turning green later on? And were there really only two types of tank-like units in the CSIR ?

[Gordon]

Originally posted by Philippe:

Gordon, what do you think accounts for the difference between Zaloga/Grandsen and the comments in the threads? Could your quote have been referring to first year of the war, with the Italians turning green later on? And were there really only two types of tank-like units in the CSIR ?

No idea. As far as I know, Zaloga's a pretty thorough researcher, but there's only half a page of text in the "Italian" section of the book. Those are the only formations listed as having significant numbers of tanks and no mention is made of later repainting.

I haven't looked at the referenced threads to see what's being discussed, but if you like green Italian vehicles, go for it. When it was time for doing the artwork for the CMBB Italian vehicles the Zaloga book was our reference.