A matter of crossing

[FaxisAxis]

Any one ever play this senario? In barbarossa to berlin? As the attacker, the sweds? I can only get my infantry and vehicles across the first bridge. And eventually I wind up as "major defeat" and "tactical lose" at best

What a B**** it is attacting in this game!

Especially when the enemy location is over and down a hill-the enemy is waiting for the minute you reach the top. And how on earth do you attact across a bridge? How do you attact when there is no cover? I've stoped my men to cover near the vehicles and fired back; ran; advanced etc you name it.I even keep some of my machine guns and morter behind with cover arcs for the men and vehicles I have advancing. GRRRRH! (ahhum, sorry)

And it seems the only way in this game to get any LOS is to get up close over some dam hill where the enemy is waiting to ambush and where there is no cover?! what's up with all this.

Also why are there no hot keys for each unit, just that frustrating and time consuming "+" and "-" a simple thing like this-say numbers to bind them to - would have helped tremendously; most old strategy games have this simply implimented practical feature.

why can't I hit a certain key which would show me all my morters, riflemen, tanks etc or just heavy artillery, vehicles and riflemen.

Why does it have to be more tedious? So it can be a good war game??

It's actually easier for me to click on each unit than use those "+" "-" keys which when I do the camera is all out of wack.

That's something else very important I wish it had: like hit one key to see with the camera where one of your sellected units is in relation to the terrain and the enemy.

I have to keep adjusting the camera for this and it is very very sluggish as you know.

I'm sorry but I wasted a night with this senario trying to learn the the tactics of this game.

I'm trying to focus on attacting through all the senarios right now and I'm finding it very frustrating indeed. I inch my rifflemen out in recon, sharp shooters if I have any, keeping cover arcs with my artillery "move to contact" and "hide" where needed. Then when I discover the enemy I suppress and then attack and from there I can only go so far before my rifflemen are exposed because at some point some of them have to attact and as soon as they do they get eliminated or panic, because there is no cover for them.

There is a point where I just want to charge my whole army at the ememy. I get tired of adjust each individual unit one little step at a time.

I'd appreciate any answers or advice from any of you who have played and achieved victories with most of the senarios as the attacter.

Thanks :mad:

[JasonC]

It is a puzzle scenario - not exactly the best to learn basic tactics on. You aren't seriously expected to beat it the first time through. But once you know the defensive set up, you should be able to beat it the second time through. Thing is, you are expected to already know all the tactics there are, to pry apart this particular puzzle. If you don't, there isn't remotely enough time.

To learn basic tactics, try something much easier at first. Play quick battles against the computer. Let the computer select its forces while picking yours yourself. Start small, 300 points, then work up to 500 points. Start with an infantry force type for both sides, or give yourself combined arms and the computer an infantry force type - then take 1 reasonable tank and the rest infantry stuff.

There are plenty of good tactics guides and I can give basic pointers if you want them.

Now to the puzzle itself. This is spoiler stuff, for those who want to learn how to crack it on their own.

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Ok, first a basic overview of the problem. The Russians have outposts on most routes, some fire groups on the central island and dug in tanks on the little rocky one on the right, and a big honking main body right behind the flag. Some of the fords are also mined. The serious Russian positions are all in trenches, making them quite tough - but they are also packed in very tight in the places they have anything more than outposts.

The main position behind the central island is impregnable from the front, off the central island. In the time you have available and with your non-existent heavy weapons for overwatch fire, at least. You can't cross there - the stuff right beyond is all wired or occupied, and anybody that gets over will be shot to rags instantly.

So you have to go around, on the right or on the left. There are fords on both sides. The left is much, much easier. On the right, the route is long and all the fords have mines. There are also delaying outposts behind each, DP LMGs or tankhunters with SMGs. The tank hunters are actually worse. The right route is also so overgrown it is impractical for your vehicles, which are the bulk of your ranged firepower.

Ergo, the main infantry crossing has to occur on the left. There is just one DP LMG in a trench on the far side of that one, readily pinned by 1-2 vehicles with their MGs, and KOed by the first infantry unit across.

But! Would that it were that easy. There are other ranged fire assets that can see the ford. The puzzle trick is to take them out before crossing most of the infantry by the left hand ford.

The relevant ranged shooters are - the dug in tanks on the far right rocky island, which can see the far left ford over all the open water. Those have 2 MGs with endless ammo and 1 76mm HE chucker. But they have only 15mm armor, and you have 6 vehicles with 20mm guns - autocannons with high rate of fire and accuracy. So you have to take them out with tank gun fire from your autocannons. The best spot to do this from is the brush area between your set-up zone and the left side ford. The ground there is quite high, making a good overwatch position generally.

The 76mm gun one might take out a vehicle of yours, but your 20s should then smoke them both. It is hard to see them before they fire (dug in tanks are easy to see when shooting, otherwise not). It is best to send some infantry left - or the tankette, or both - to draw their fire and get spots of them. You also want multiple shooters and minimal side angle is possible - at the ranges you'll have, your AP is marginal against their 15mm armor unless the hit is "flat".

There is a second place you could kill them from - the central island. If you need closer range, consider it.

That's it for the tanks. But on the central island there is a "reverse slope" Maxim position in a trench, along with a couple of snipers. It can see the left side ford, too. Now, both snipers and MGs in good cover, are very hard to spot at long range, even when they are firing. That is the third part of the puzzle. You can't readily kill an entrenched MG at range, and can't readily get a good angle to it anyway, from the left, before entering the water.

The best way to kill that MG and those snipers is by getting infantry within grenade range, right on the central island. They are at the very back of the island and in lower ground than most of it, so LOS starts from point blank range. Snipers can't even fire properly so close. The MG can, but not if it is facing far left - you can get the drop on it by distracting it first with someone in the left ford. Even in a trench, at grenade range a squad will pin it easily, and once it is pinned it can be finished off readily.

Now, it isn't quite as simple as that to get infantry on the central island, because there are other goodies there covering the way in. There is an MG log bunker inside the house. Infantry can't beat it, but any 20mm vehicle can, readily, once it is spotted, by getting a "firing slit penetration" or 3. Again it has to be spotted, by drawing its fire with infantry. Also, there is a tank hunter covering it, but in this period they just have molotovs, so as long as you can buttoned up a vehicle is pretty safe there.

Put it all together, like a maze, with the moves scoped out from last to first. An armored car has to visit the central island but stay on its front side. A half squad can go along to draw fire. The AC torched the log bunker and the tank hunter. Then a platoon or so on infantry - I recommend 2 squads, which can include the pioneer - go through to the other side, and blow up the Maxim trench. (The pioneer's demo charges will be useful). Police up the snipers as well. Do not expose these guys to the main Russian position near the flag - hang back a bit and use the woods on the island for cover. Do not attempt to cross from the central island - the mission is just to take out the forward, island shooters.

Simultaneously, send both tanks - tankette and a half squad leading to draw fire - left through the brush. Find the dug in tanks on the rocky island and KO them with massed 20mm cannon fire.

Now the island shooters should be gone. You've got a few men on the center island. Send your powerful MGs there too, after the infantry, and set them up in the trees, covering the flag area but not crossing. Make sure they have an HQ, and send the 2 50mm mortars. Now they wait.

All the rest of the infantry goes left, crossing the brush after the Russian tanks are torched. They all then cross at the left side ford. The first half squad will draw DP LMG fire from the other side - pin the shooter with MGs from the vehicles, lots of them. Now cross full squads, close to point blank and KO that LMG.

The tankette if alive, and the tank, should cross the left side ford after the bulk of your infantry. The armored cars can stay on the brush-ridge and support with just fire, from range. Keep forward facing toward the flag area (there is a 25mm AA there that can hurt ACs with flank shots, but doesn't have enough penetration at long range to punch through the front).

All your infantry on the left should get into the tree cover and advance on the flag from woods to woods. You are also ready for the finish, taking the flag.

Because the Russians there are so packed in, HE is at a premium against them. You have 2 50mm mortars, they should hit one trench together to pin the guys in it. The 81mm FO should drop smoke on the position during the firefight. This will keep the farther trench from helping. Pour in fire from all of your MGs - they will suppress everyone in the area. Your infantry then advances woods to woods from the left, closing to grenade range. By the time the smoke lifts they should be finishing the first trench. Shift the same methods to the second.

One other key thing in this scenario. You have monster higher level HQs. The battalion commander is +2 everything, and you have another company commander with +2 morale and +2 command. It is a waste to leave men under the crappy platoon HQs when you have guys like these.

You have one platoon HQ with +2 combat and +1 morale. Use him on the center island. He can direct the MGs and 50mms when the time comes. Send the least stellar company HQ there as well, to command the pioneer squad and such. You don't need all the +2 combat guy's squads, 1-2 will do.

All the rest of the squads, give to the two stellar higher HQs. This gives everyone +2 morale, meaning the regulars are like crack and the greens are like veterans. Your crappy HQs can be used for scouting, mere feints or distraction work - just consider them independent half squads. And keep them away from "their" squads, so those use the right, battalion or company HQs.

The time is still tight, and you have to get pretty much every step to go off without a hitch, to actually KO all the Russian on the flag and thus capture it, in the time allotted. But it can all work. If you are slow you should still contest the flag, and thus make victory or draw a matter of losses. If you haven't lost too much you can win a tactical even with a contested flag.

[JasonC]

BTW, to clarify what I mean by "a puzzle scenario", this one is designed to have only one basic approach that can work, with the idea being to find that way in the maze of options. It is a therefore a remarkably bad way to learn basic tactics, because you are instead being led by the nose by the scenario designer, to piece together exactly the plan he - not you - picked out. If you don't see his one and only solution, you haven't got a prayer of completing the mission in the allotted 20 minutes.

To learn basic tactics, you want something much much easier, and something where you, not the scenario designer, are in the driver's seat. You want to call your own shots, and try things that make sense to you, rather than guess which ones somebody else wanted you to use. So don't beat your head against that "head game" wall. That head game only makes sense in the first place, if you already understand every tactical relationship the designer is manipulating in his puzzle construction kit.

Instead you want to learn things like how to advance infantry under fire, how to organize suppressive fire, how to pick routes, how to get tanks to help, etc, etc. The last thing you need is to be inside somebody else's head, instead of your own, while trying to figure all that stuff out. So, play a series of simple quick battle against the computer instead. Where you pick your force, it is small enough to manage, and you can learn what works and what doesn't.

On interface issues, incidentally, try just using the higher camera views 4, 7. Use the wide overhead shots for basic planning. Use the highest still tilted ones, with the unit sizes increased (shift C a few times) and unit bases turned on - it is a lot easier to see everyone that way. Get an angle that isn't centered on any of your units, but instead "looks over their shoulders" from a ways back, to get them all in view. And then just select units with your mouse, don't fiddle with the + and - keys.

I hope this helps, and good luck. If you have further basic tactics questions, fire away.

[FaxisAxis]

Thank you, JasonC, for your response. I am on my way to work right now but intend to study these tactics you've given more indepth through this puzzle of yours.

I have to say after reading some of your messages on this forum on tips, strategies and unite stats you seem to be the person to ask.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you were a general yourself at one time -or something like that.

As for playing a game against myself. I don't know if I have the patients for that. I just want, after reading the online strategy guide, to beat some of these senarios and learn and get better as I go along. Playing against myself seems to be very time consuming and unrewarding.

[FaxisAxis]

Thanks, again, JasonC, I just read both of your replies and I must say there is a wealth of plausible sollutions to this "puzzle".

Also, I probably will take your advice on playing nonsenario quick battles with the computer to sharpen my tactics. And is there any way you can email me some of your savefiles from say a given senario so I can analyze where you attacked and with what HQ and unite type combinations at which turns?... or even just a few screenshots?...That would be a tremendous help I would think.

In any case here is my email zhligw@yahoo.com

[Corvidae]

A matter of crossing:

I've never beaten it,, and now I know why.

JasonC, I'll try your method on this mission.

FaxisAxis, It's a frustrating one isnt it.

Dont let it get you down, its still only just a game.

[MPK]

"something else very important I wish it had: like hit one key to see with the camera where one of your sellected units is in relation to the terrain and the enemy"

I may have misunderstood Faxis,

but have you tried the Tab key?

This locks to the selected unit....

And gives you their POV...

[Sivodsi]

Hey, where can I get a copy of 'a matter of crossing'? I couldn't find it at the scenario depot.

[Zalgiris 1410]

It came with the Disc, CMBB Special Edition, if you don't have it ask someone to e-mail it to you Sivodsi or in fact I'll ask now for anyone who knows how to do this and can do this to please ablige.

I remember playing this one once, verry early on, I found it to be an interesting challenge. I actually pretty much followed Jason C's plan- by default!

Still it wasn't pretty and I'm not sure what result I achieved. Firstly I captured the central island after being drawn into a shoot out that I found myself having to follow up with some minimal infantry support finally close assulting the former occupiers. Having taken that I felt that an assualt across the bridge was suicide in the face of the enemy, let alone with those tank turrets on the flank. So that left the left as the only possible avenue of advance. Of cause I had to deal with those turrets once I learnt through receiving some shot up onfantry casualties that they had a field of fire that coverred the left. So while I prepared and re-sent the rest of most of my infantry that way again, I engaged the tank with my armour from several positions. I think I got them and my infantry attacked the final objective with heavy weapons support from the central island. Even though my artillery strike had knocked out the Russian AA gun and therefore my troops coming up from the south only faced small arms, the final flag remained contested at the end of the game. My infantry had sufferred too many casualties and lacked the breath to fully secure it in time. I was disapointed about that, but all the same I really did enjoy the senario a lot more than I had expected to.