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Don't think this has been posted before. It's for those like me who find the little quirks in the CM design to be interesting. Here it is:

Take an AT unit which does not have any real AP capability (an ATR for example, or a pure AT gun). Have an enemy infantry unit move into the area, in the open, at no great distance from the AT unit (100m say). If you look closely, you will likely notice that the AT unit is firing pistol shots at the enemy. Apparently, the TacAI is set to make use of the available small arms ammo that is allocated to the AT crew even if the crew is still manning its weapon. What's particularly curious is that this also occurs with AT weapons, like an ATR which cannot be abandoned by the crew. So apparently the model allocates some small arms ammo to these as well. I have not tried to determine how widespread this is among these types of weapons (for example, a bazooka or a schreck with HC). It is clear to me, however, that this pattern of firing is not just when the unit is threatened with being overrun, but anytime the TacAI thinks it has a suitable target at a suitable range.

Not clear to me yet if this is useful tactically all that often, although it does tend to be pretty stealthy firing. It has inflicted damage to enemy squads on a couple of occasions when I was looking.

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I realized when I posted that this might prove to be one of those situations in which everyone was "in on the joke" but me, but that's one of the things that makes CM so addictive -- there's always something new to learn!. I realized after looking at it a little more that it works like the dual weapon system on tanks. The only difference is that with tanks you can track what is happening by following the ammo counter on the MG(s). With these infantry type units there is no separate counter for the ammo they are expending. Also, of course, they do not have the same impact on the enemy. Still, it is useful to know they have this characteristic.

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A particularly "interesting" example of this that I detected after discovering that crewed weapons did this:

A light mortar (German 50mm, I think) was in cover about 100m or so from a previously undetected enemy unit. The enemy uncovered near the end of the turn and began firing (not at the mortar). The mortar crew's first reaction was to fire their pistols at the enemy unit rather than immediately start firing mortars! One can only speculate on the reasons for this. It's worth noting that since I've observed this, I have never seen a unit become spotted as a result of doing this. Perhaps that explains the mortar crew's behavior??

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Either crews randomly have either low ammo or full ammo/partial ammo upon abandoning a gun. Or when the crews use their sidearms it actually takes up ammunition from their sidearm bar. I have had several times where my crews have shot at the enemy and caused casualities. Then shortly after abandoning their gun only to have low ammo. Moral of the story being = CM is wonderful.

Tschüß!

Erich

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Crews are treated differently since CMBO. Crews that abandon vehicles are given low ammo status. This was to prevent players from using these crews in a gamey way. Crews that abandon guns or mortars (for example) have an allotment of ammo and can act as normal infantry in that regard. What I have not been able to observe yet is a situation in which such a crew fires its pistols before abandoning the weapon, and then seen the reduction reflected in the ammo total afterward. I have to assume, however, that this reduction would be there if I did. The other thing that I have noticed now is that not all pistols in CM are created equal (surprise??). German (and German allies) have pistols which put out more FP than other pistols. A reasonably sized unit can, at short range, put out a respectable FP given those weapons!

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In terms of cartridge, no, the Walther and Browning are both 9mm.

But, the Walther is a double action whereas the Browning is a single action. Even though I consider the Browning HP model 35 to be a superior pistol (and one of the original benchmark pistols, much like Colt's 1911 in .45) if you're looking at it from sheer "throw a ton of lead into the air" viewpoint, then the Walther -or any double action pistol- would have more FP than the Browning.

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I've seen this as well, most comically with a sharpshooter.

He fired a couple of longer-ranged shots at an enemy Platoon HQ, and then as the came closer, launched a fusilade of fire against them, which didn't take his sniper rifle's ammo away at all.

And once he had them pinned, over the next ten or so turns he must have fired roughly forty or fifty times, until the Platoon HQ were all wiped out.

Which was odd, but pretty handy for me.

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Originally posted by SteveP:

A particularly "interesting" example of this that I detected after discovering that crewed weapons did this:

A light mortar (German 50mm, I think) was in cover about 100m or so from a previously undetected enemy unit. The enemy uncovered near the end of the turn and began firing (not at the mortar). The mortar crew's first reaction was to fire their pistols at the enemy unit rather than immediately start firing mortars! One can only speculate on the reasons for this. It's worth noting that since I've observed this, I have never seen a unit become spotted as a result of doing this. Perhaps that explains the mortar crew's behavior??

If the enemy unit was within your mortar's minimum range(which I believe is 100m), they would not have been able to fire the mortar at the enemy. So, they use their small arms. At least, that's my understanding.
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Originally posted by Shmavis:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SteveP:

A particularly "interesting" example of this that I detected after discovering that crewed weapons did this:

A light mortar (German 50mm, I think) was in cover about 100m or so from a previously undetected enemy unit. The enemy uncovered near the end of the turn and began firing (not at the mortar). The mortar crew's first reaction was to fire their pistols at the enemy unit rather than immediately start firing mortars! One can only speculate on the reasons for this. It's worth noting that since I've observed this, I have never seen a unit become spotted as a result of doing this. Perhaps that explains the mortar crew's behavior??

If the enemy unit was within your mortar's minimum range(which I believe is 100m), they would not have been able to fire the mortar at the enemy. So, they use their small arms. At least, that's my understanding. </font>
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  • 2 years later...

<quote>But, the Walther is a double action whereas the Browning is a single action. Even though I consider the Browning HP model 35 to be a superior pistol (and one of the original benchmark pistols, much like Colt's 1911 in .45) if you're looking at it from sheer "throw a ton of lead into the air" viewpoint, then the Walther -or any double action pistol- would have more FP than the Browning.</quote>

Not so. The Browning HP and M1911 are only "single-action" before firing: with each round the hammer is recocked by the recoiling slide. In fact, chambering the first round from a new mag also cocks the hammer, it has to be let down to "safe" manually. The ROF is no less than a Walther. And, of course, the .45 has considerably more stopping power than a 9mm.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm hoping that CM2 Normandy and successor games properly model the weapons of crew served weapon crews, for there are times when these men need to fight as infantry in order to prevent being overrun by infantry attack or in the event of crew served weapon loss/disablement/no ammo left. A famous example of this was at LZ X-Ray in the Ia Drang valley, RSVN in which the mortar crews there literally had to break off defensive shoots and repel NVA regulars which had gotten inside the defensive fires and were apart to seize the mortar positions, exposing the entire force on the LZ to annihilation.

Regards,

John Kettler

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  • 3 months later...

This 'quirk' has had some really bad results. Playing against the AI one of my flamethrowers had snuck up on an enemy position, and instead of using flame, he used his small arms fire and game himself away, he died shortly after.

Marx

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