nevermind Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 The Pz VIEs' turret front is 102mm/8,but it is reinforced.So what exactly does this mean?Does it add like 10 degrees of angle to the turret front?Making it 102mm/18(?),or something along those lines.Or is the effect of the reinforced turret front more subdued? Also,in regard to some recent disscussion on the forum about Pz IV tactics and usage,I noticed that the Pz VIEs' lower front hull was 102mm/24.Since it was agreed by most(?)that it would be beneficial for the Pz IV to stay hull up,to lessen the exposure of the weaker turret front,would'nt it also help the Pz VIEs' weaker front upper hull(102mm/10)? Thanks in advance. [ February 20, 2004, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: nevermind ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 It means something between 200mm and a Star Trek-ee "its hull is pure neutronium. No weapon known to our science can penetrate it". Tons of hits on Tiger turret fronts that should penetrate by all the formulas just won't. Tons of guns that should penetrate Tiger sides won't either. Russian 85mm in 1943 will fail routinely at medium range, even flat hits on the hull front rather than the turret. Is this all a bit overdone? Yes. CMBB Tigers are out of Signal Magazine, not history. We deal with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Jason, could you spare me a couple of those indestructible Tigers? Apparently I've been receiving all the lousy batches. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by nevermind: :confused: Ok, since Jason decided to follow the Battlefront forum guideline of "sickeningly lousy humor", I'll give you the straight answer: If the Tiger turret front suffers a hit, the penetration is calculated with a random armor thickness from 102mm to somewhere around 130, to simulate the reinforced turret mantle (which didn't cover the entire face of the turret). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by nevermind: :confused: Ok, since Jason decided to follow the Battlefront forum guideline of "sickeningly lousy humor", I'll give you the straight answer: If the Tiger turret front suffers a hit, the penetration is calculated with a random armor thickness from 102mm to somewhere around 130, to simulate the reinforced turret mantle (which didn't cover the entire face of the turret). </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 No, you most definitely want to be hull down. The turret is much stronger than the hull, and hull down makes all hits less likely, and concentrates the hits that do occur on the turret. Also, the most vulnerable plates on the tank are the lower hull sides, which are effectively hidden when hull down. (Everybody will be trying to flank you, because the front is so strong, so the effect on side engagements does matter, too). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by nevermind: As to my second question.It may be obvious to others,though i have never heard it mentioned,but isnt keeping a Pz VIE hull up a good thing?Seeing as the front upper hull is the weakest(?) piece of front armor.Or would that just make it more vunerable to track hits and immobilization?This question is also open to anyone/everyone. Uhh... I wager you confused the terminology: Tiger is an exception, since it's turret is theoretically more durable than the hull. Also, Tiger is one of the few tanks that has a nearly impregnable turret armor in it's prime time (another example would be the KV-1 models before '42). So, unlike with most of the other fine German tanks, the Tiger should be kept hull down (behind the crest of a hill so only its turret is visible). Another reason to avoid advancing towards the enemy is Tiger's poor mobility in comparison to Russian T-34 models: with high ground pressure, below average speed and a slow turret, you'll risk exposing your precious tank to flank shots. Shot to the side at extremely close ranges, even the vanilla Russian AP round may breach the Tiger armor - or cause spalling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by nevermind: As to my second question.It may be obvious to others,though i have never heard it mentioned,but isnt keeping a Pz VIE hull up a good thing?Seeing as the front upper hull is the weakest(?) piece of front armor.Or would that just make it more vunerable to track hits and immobilization?This question is also open to anyone/everyone. Uhh... I wager you confused the terminology: Tiger is an exception, since it's turret is theoretically more durable than the hull. Also, Tiger is one of the few tanks that has a nearly impregnable turret armor in it's prime time (another example would be the KV-1 models before '42). So, unlike with most of the other fine German tanks, the Tiger should be kept hull down (behind the crest of a hill so only its turret is visible). Another reason to avoid advancing towards the enemy is Tiger's poor mobility in comparison to Russian T-34 models: with high ground pressure, below average speed and a slow turret, you'll risk exposing your precious tank to flank shots. Shot to the side at extremely close ranges, even the vanilla Russian AP round may breach the Tiger armor - or cause spalling. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 We do understand. Take heed, that even when the tank is fully exposed, the hits are never divided evenly between the parts of the tank: the upper hull and the turret receive a majority of the hits anyway. But when the tank is hull down, the base hit probability (that the tank is hit in the first place) will be reduced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 Ah,ok.Thanks guys. JasonC, Sorry,I was trying to get out PBEM turns and didnt see you had responded.I thought only Bone_Vulture had responded.Otherwise I wouldnt have posted exactly what i did.Also,I am in a situation where,atleast in this battle of the operation,the likelyhood of there being any flanking manuevers,is slim.Unless my opponent wants to come out of his entrenchments?In which case I would be... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 The Tiger mantlet varied widely in thickness. 135mm to 140mm or so around the gun and in the middle two-thirds or so of the flat areas, down to 97mm at the upper and lower edges. Maximum Tiger mantlet thickness close to 200mm at the trunnion mounts. But the upper and lower edges were backed by a 100mm armor casting. The area immediately around the vision openings for the gunner was 75mm thick or so on the early Tigers due to a hollowed-out area, but was reinforced on later Tiger tanks. The above is what is meant by reinforced turret front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtabell Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Nevermind Where are you? What about our game? Is email fuxored? SgtAbell 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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