Russian Training Scenario 110

[JasonC]

If your side is very low on ammo or most of its men are in red morale states, your own "offer ceasefire" button is automatically pressed. When the MG panicked, his was pressed too, and a ceasefire resulted. If your men were OK morale wise, the likely culprit is near-zero ammo.

[SteveP]

Originally posted by knalla:

Did someone playing 110 got an automatic ceasefire as soon as the mg panics?

To amplify a little on Jason's explanation, IIRC the parameters in this scenario set it to be a Probe. Because of that, you don't have to get all that low on ammo to trigger an auto ceasefire from your side (don't recall the exact amount, but I think maybe around 40% of your original ammo load). If the scenario was set to an Assault, for example, your ammo would have to get down to a much lower level (I think below 25% or maybe 20%) to trigger the auto ceasefire. The idea is to model the fact that units seldom fought an engagement to the last bullet (this is described in the manual in a section titled Force Readiness).

The key question is why you are getting low on ammo at all, given what the Russians start with (I'm assuming you have not altered the scenario yourself in the Editor). Are you possibly using a lot of area fire from a long range (over 250m say)? Or perhaps have units direct firing but so far away that their fire is less effective and so it's taking too many turns to break the MG? Remember you can advance units as you start to suppress the MG, and as you get closer the effectiveness of your firepower goes up.

[JasonC]

Yep - my guess is early area fire is the cause.

On closing in, a thing to understand about these standard Russian infantry squads is they get half their close-in firepower from that pair of PPsH submachineguns. But they don't contribute much of anything beyond about 150m, and they rise very sharply in firepower under 100m.

A squad at 75m has the power to break men in a trench, if its SMGs and DL LMG are alive and manned. If you get closer still, at around 35-40m they will throw grenades. Those are the important ranges.

Trench cover is good enough to avoid an outright break even from sustained firepower of a whole platoon, if the range stays well above 100m. You can get a pin that way, but then you need to exploit that pin (the reduction in his fire) to get somebody up to SMG range.

Once you have several SMGs working at 75m, he won't last long. And he'll be so suppressed somebody can easily continue down to grenade range. You don't even need to worry about cover, really. Firepower is cover when you are that close, against a lone enemy shooter.

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by Cuirassier:

Sorry, I never made my point clear. I only hide when I am out of spotting distance (135m)

Your HQ will spot from much further.

[Cuirassier]

I have tried this scenario repeatedly lately, again to no avail. It is truly PISSING ME OFF!

I use JasonC's tactics to the fullest, I think, and use the houses as LOS blocks to get close to the MG-42. However, over open ground, the platoon is much to brittle to survive anything. Entire squads panic with one burst. Only luck allows you to pass this scenario I believe.

I have tried the correct tactics so many times, but they fail. These open ground tactics may have use with regular platoons, HQ's with some bonuses, or a company, but attempting this with a green platoon is not possible.

If someone, maybe even JasonC, wants to prove me wrong and show that this scenario is consisently passable, please post and AAR and prove me wrong.

[Loeffe]

I had no trouble on 110. Played it once more to test my luck, with almost the same result. The MG spotted me a little earlier this time, and I had to wait a few rounds for the paniced squads to rout.

The MG WILL mess up the squad it hits almost instantly, so the trick is to have +3 squads and MG support opening up on it once it reveals it position. Then it will pin, and you can move in on it.

Posted this in the main thread, but since you asked for an AAR, I'll repost it here:

---

110

...was a cakewalk. Well for me at least, I'm not sure my men agree

I lined up 2 squads on one side of the road, and the remaining squads plus HQ on the other, and advanced forward along the road using MOVE TO CONTACT and HIDE.

Reached my intended positions without any contact: 2 Squads in the small patch of wood and the building east of the road, last 2 squads and HQ behind the fence. With all the units in place 150-220 meters from the flag, I set up cover arcs around the flag area (where I spotted a trench).

I ADVANCE one squad from over the fence towards the flag. 100 meters from the flag they recieve MG fire and panics INSTANTLY. The men flee towards the trench and recieve a few casualties. Meanwhile an MG is spotted, and all three squads open up on it.

The MG keeps slaughtering the paniced squad that goes from 12 to 5 men, but is finally pinned after 2 rounds of fire. I advance my last fence-squad, while the others keep firing. It closes to hand grenade range and first breaks, then captures the MG, which only has one man standing.

TOTAL VICTORY 87% - 13%

--

[Loeffe]

Approach - Turn 6

<a href="http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=110approach3fr.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

Pinning the MG - Turn 9

<a href="http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=110pin7zp.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

[ January 28, 2006, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Loeffe ]

[knalla]

After solving the mistery of the automatic ceasefires (Thanks JasonC and SteveP) I managed to win this scenario with east side being allied wich I never was able to do it until now.

I set my forces with two Squads going to the patch of scattered trees on the left and the rest + HQ going to the house before the fence.

They reach their objectives in turn 4. The trench is spotted in that turn. I order the two squads on the left to area fire on the trench to make it easier for the other squads to advance to the fence

The HQ and a half squad reach the fence. The mg hasn't fire so far

I send one of the squads in the trees forward while hte other continues area firing. The remaining half squad in the house and the full squad move to the fence

The squad on the left is getting pretty close to the trench. Still no sound contact of the mg. I ordered a squad to cross the fence and advance to the crater

The Mg finally opens fire against the squad on the left panicking them with the first burst, the second panics the other squad. I start thinking that I'm not going to do it but the mg hits the dirt before it can open fire again.

I order my HQ to advance to try to rally both squads, everybody now is firing to the MG.

One of the squads has rallied and is firing close range to the mg. I order the squad in the fence to advance to the crater where my HQ is.

The MG leave the trench and dies trying to escape. Total victory 6-6 casualties 2-2 KIA

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by Loeffe:

110

...was a cakewalk. Well for me at least, I'm not sure my men agree

Why is the axis MG not in the trench? Play this with making the computer keep the initial placement, and dont area fire the trench before spotting the MG, and it will be much harder.

[Cuirassier]

I feeling awfully repetitive asking this on this forum, but it is necessary when someone posts an AAR.

Loeffe and Knalla, did you complete the scenario shown in your AAR's with the MG-42 reoriented. I agree, 110 is a cakewalk, especially with area fire, when the MG is facing the wrong way. But when the scenario is modified, it becomes much more difficult. I am not implying that you did in fact play the scenario without modifying, but am simply wondering.

[madDdog67]

I agree 100% with Curassier...switch the friendly board edges around and play this again. It's brutal. I kicked the AI's butt repeatedly...but not once I oriented the MG the other way.

[knalla]

Originally posted by Cuirassier:

I feeling awfully repetitive asking this on this forum, but it is necessary when someone posts an AAR.

Loeffe and Knalla, did you complete the scenario shown in your AAR's with the MG-42 reoriented. I agree, 110 is a cakewalk, especially with area fire, when the MG is facing the wrong way. But when the scenario is modified, it becomes much more difficult. I am not implying that you did in fact play the scenario without modifying, but am simply wondering.

Yes, I changed the East side to allied. I stated it in my original post but i reckon wasn't very clear.

Cheers

[Cuirassier]

Yes, I changed the East side to allied. I stated it in my original post but i reckon wasn't very clear.

Sorry I never noticed. I just skimmed through the AAR's. However, why is the MG not firing at your men behind and in the scattered trees during the approach march? The one tile of scattered trees is not an LOS block, and in my experience, with the MG reoriented, it fires at anything from turn 1 unless an LOS block ( only houses provide it on this map) is used.

[Loeffe]

I didn't modify anything... Just played it after downloading.

Also the screenshots are from my second go, where I didn't keep initial placement of enemy troops (ie let computer chose setup), as David Chapuis noticed.

This was just to have some variation from my first attempt (where the MG was in the trench). The results were the same even.

I dont know why the MG didn't spot me in any of the games? I try to HIDE my troops on startup and also use MOVE TO CONTACT AND HIDE, when approaching, plus taking the most hidden routes.

[SteveP]

Originally posted by Cuirassier:

However, why is the MG not firing at your men behind and in the scattered trees during the approach march? The one tile of scattered trees is not an LOS block, and in my experience, with the MG reoriented, it fires at anything from turn 1 unless an LOS block ( only houses provide it on this map) is used. [/QB]

One possible explanation is this:

Knalla: when you modified scenario 110 in the Editor to fix the side ownership problem, did you check to make sure it was saved as RusTrain110? If not, there's a good chance that it was saved as RusTrain200. Then when you went back to play 110 you were playing the original unmodified version. And if you try to play scenario 200, you would find it looking very much like 110 (except much harder to play ).

If that isn't the explanation, there's another possible answer. When you changed the east side to Allied, did you also change the west side to Axis? If not, the editor will default the parameters back to what they were before when you try to save the scenario (there has to be at least one side allocated to each army). You can check this by looking at the scenario again in the Editor.

These are the only two explanations I could think of, that would explain why your area fire tactic had any useful effect at all on the MG.

[SteveP]

Originally posted by Loeffe:

I didn't modify anything... Just played it after downloading.

Also the screenshots are from my second go, where I didn't keep initial placement of enemy troops (ie let computer chose setup), as David Chapuis noticed.

This was just to have some variation from my first attempt (where the MG was in the trench). The results were the same even.

I dont know why the MG didn't spot me in any of the games? I try to HIDE my troops on startup and also use MOVE TO CONTACT AND HIDE, when approaching, plus taking the most hidden routes.

If you work your way thru this thread (or the main one covering all these training scenarios) you will learn the answer as to why the MG isn't spotting you (hint: it's not what you think ). Whether you choose to modify the scenario in the Editor or not is a matter of personal taste, certainly, but it is useful to know what's really happening in this scenario, since the circumstances are significantly different from what you would find in any QB and in all but some highly unusual scenarios.

[knalla]

Originally posted by SteveP:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

One possible explanation is this:

Knalla: when you modified scenario 110 in the Editor to fix the side ownership problem, did you check to make sure it was saved as RusTrain110? If not, there's a good chance that it was saved as RusTrain200. Then when you went back to play 110 you were playing the original unmodified version. And if you try to play scenario 200, you would find it looking very much like 110 (except much harder to play ).

If that isn't the explanation, there's another possible answer. When you changed the east side to Allied, did you also change the west side to Axis? If not, the editor will default the parameters back to what they were before when you try to save the scenario (there has to be at least one side allocated to each army). You can check this by looking at the scenario again in the Editor.

These are the only two explanations I could think of, that would explain why your area fire tactic had any useful effect at all on the MG. [/QB]</font>

[Physim]

After numerous numerous tries I finally passed this scenario. I left it completely vanilla.

I used the tactics as learned from the thread ie keep in command range. Use two or three to shoot and keep the MG occupied while advancing one or two units short distances and hiding. Around turn 10 I got two units behind the wooden fence and moved two more from the tree toward the road with the HQ in the middle. Pouring in the fire eventually flushed out and then eliminated the MG at about turn 14 with no casualties.

All previous times I got my butt kicked badly.

[Cuirassier]

Physim,

Now try it with the MG reoriented. You will have to change the map ownership for the German's and Soviet's. Once you make this change, I guarentee you will have troubles with the scenario, like everyone else.

[Grimly Fiendish]

It doesn't hurt if you split your squads, too, so each squad can handle suppression and advancing by itself if necessary. Whole squads won't break at once.

The main thing this scenario has to teach is discipline in applying what you already know: cover, command, and suppression.

My first try was laughable, as 1 squad ran right off the map. My second got me up past the fence and close enough to get the MG to duck, but not in good order, and I ran out of time. You definitely have to make no major mistakes. The longer your men are delayed, the more ammo you have to use to hose the MG.

It's a fine trainer, once you fix the details and change the Russian setup to something more practical.

[knalla]

Well, I tried several times with the proper "side ownership" and I found it impossible, I didn't have that " I really feck it this time but now I know better for next try" feeling; If mg shoots a squad it panics almost instantly making little difference whether on command range or not.

I'd love a JasonC's AAR using his tacticts to win this map using same parameters as we're using.

[Grimly Fiendish]

I have no doubt that 110 can be done with very few casualties, although I haven't gotten there yet myself. The main drill is very simple, and I've done it before in similar but less severe situations: don't let the MG spot any of your guys in the open for more than 20-25 meters running (I don't know how many seconds that is) without taking fire himself, suppressive or otherwise. (There's a Civil War term for this that I can't recall: rushes and bounds or something.)

Make sure at least 2 teams are firing on him while everyone else does the run & drop. Move toward the MG through the houses. Give the shooters a break periodically if they pin or are using ammo too fast or need to move up with the others. Firing from cover is better at the 200m range, at which the MG has the higher firepower. Closer than that, your firepower will be greater than the MG's, pretty much.

Make sure everybody stays within command range. Make sure your platoon HQ doesn't panic: his only purposes are rallying and spotting the MG. Once that is done, keep his head down in the rear.

If you can get everybody at 150 meters away from the spotted MG and none of your guys are broken, you have ammo, and you have time, then you have won. Advance as before, and the MG will keep his head down more than he fires. Get within 50 meters and his ass is yours.

[Grimly Fiendish]

knalla, to answer your post more precisely---the command difference will be seen after a unit has pinned, panicked, broken, etc., not during the firing. If they are in command range, they will recover faster and you can keep moving.

If too many squads sneak out of command range, the HQ may need to stop or go back to get them. No more than one squad can be left behind to recover on its own, or you will not beat the clock or the ammo limit.

Here's a cool link to an old Army basic training manual. There are several sources for this, as it's a classic:

http://thetrainer.info/infantry1.htm

[Physim]

Originally posted by Cuirassier:

Physim,

Now try it with the MG reoriented. You will have to change the map ownership for the German's and Soviet's. Once you make this change, I guarentee you will have troubles with the scenario, like everyone else.

I had enough trouble the other way, it took me heaps of goes to succeed.

[Cuirassier]

Ok, after a short hiatus from playing this scenario (I was very pissed off from it to say the least :mad: ), I canme back to it today, played it twice, and won both time. Before this, I had just played to 200 series, and I think these scenarios greatly helped my "infantry drill" abilities. Like we have been told many times, I staggered my men's movement, and kept them spaced out, etc.

Not bunching up is critical, and long staggers between the movement of front rank and rear rank of the platoon assists in keeping the men spaced.

Men must also advance towards the MG-42; if they advance perpendicular to it, flanking fire occurrs and panics occur instatnly.

Most imporantly however, I have discovered the difference between my success and failure. This came about from what I learned from the 200 series. When moving infantry before, I was much to conservative, and not pushing them hard enough. Anyone in yellow morale I halted and my advances were only 30m. This time, i pushed my men to almost the limit. Anyone other than pinned or worse got waypoints, and advances were anywhere from 50m to 80m. Doing this, two squads reached the shell craters, and the others followed up. In my second game, I even had a broken from this pushing, but others advanced on and he rallied. I got a spot on turn 12 my first game and turn 10 my second. From here, the game snowballed and the enemy surrendered on turn 19 both times. In game 1 I had 10 casualties and in game 2 I had 8.

These may be somewhat high, but that is what happens when the men are pushed. At least they achieve something though. Perhaps other people have been to conservative with their men as well and need to push them harder. It helps a lot.

Of course, as mentioned before, a green platoon is very brittle, and sometimes this sceanrio just can't be one, as some squads may just route with a birst. However if you are aggressive enough and do the drill, I think this sceanrio can be beaten mor often than not. I found playing 200 and 201 helped a lot.