Little Ponyri Station-SP

[Cuirassier]

Hi, today I played Little Ponyri Station, the single player version, on CMBB. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to play it and post how they won as sort of a tutorial. Or even just talk about it. I would like this, because when I played, I found it somewhat a large and overwhelming game, and the battle ended in a draw, both sides incurring massive casualties. Since there are no large scale fighting tutorials on this thead, I thought it could be beneficial to many players. By the way, I played the Germans, as most of you would probably figure out.

Thanks.

[JasonC]

If you expect people to comment on scenarios, you have to provide a place the thing actually exists. In case nobody noticed, the scenario depot is gone. Just giving a title is useless, it takes a live link.

[Philippe]

Posting a name of a title can be a bit on the vague side, especially if you don't post the name of the designer and the source location.

The collected scenarios from the Scenario Depot were all posted to CMMODS, of course. For CMBB you need to look for something called Scenario Depot Salvage. Trouble is, Little Ponyri Station isn't included in those postings. There are two scenarios called Ponyri Express, but I doubt that's the same thing.

[Cuirassier]

Oops! I'm very sorry. I accidently listed the wrong scenario. I meant Ponyri Express SP. That is the scenario I found difficult. Thanks for bringing that to my attention Philippe. Anyway, I was unaware that I should link it, because the scenario came with my version of CMBB.

Anyway, if someone would care to go to the website Philippe listed, find Ponyri Express SP, play it and give a detailed AAR, I think many players would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

[John N]

That sounds like one of the Stalingrad Pack scenarions which can be found at boots and tracks.

[JasonC]

No, it is in the Kursk pack actually. Unsurprising, since Ponyri was the "Elephant graveyard" on the northern sector of Kursk, where all the Russian reserves met Model's spearhead and stopped it. At least I now have it. There are versions for 1 or 2 players, and it does not say which one player it is meant for, if played against the AI. The original poster says he played as the Germans, so I will assume that is what he meant.

For the record, the right post would have said Ponyri Express I in the KP. The SP - KP confusion stems from the single player version of the scenario being labeled "SP" for single player, rather than "Stalingrad Pack".

Looking at it, it is huge obviously, and will take quite some time to play. Immediate thoughts - some elements of the German force structure are just wrong. Panzergrenadiers from an infantry division? OK, maybe to simulate a 2 LMG per squad load-out. But with 27 halftracks? IDs didn't have halftracks, even the IDs spearheading the Kursk northern attack. It was heavy assault gun support for leg infantry fighting dismounted.

Elements of 2 divisions and 3 formations? Hardly likely, the 18th PD guys would have fought their own way. The Elephants and StuGs are correct. The PD recon guys had the doo-dads like PSWs and light SPWs, but this was hardly recon work. SPWs did not mix types, 250 and 251 in the same formation. The recon guys typically had 250s and the Pz Gdrs 251s, but IDs had neither. The Flak vehicles would not mix types 37 and 20. It would be 3 37 or 4 single 20 or 2 quad 20.

The infantry are also missing their mortars, which they would use on-map for a battle this size. The OOB has 2 81mm mortar halftracks, which is right for a single company of armored Pz Gdrs. If that is supposed to be the 18 PD contribution, fine. The 2 full battalions have only their mortar FOs, which do not do the same job at all. Working with assault guns, the mortars need to be on anti-gun assignments, which means used in pairs on map at company level, 12 of them for this size. Also, all the battalion level HMGs are missing, only the company level ones represented, 24 in all. There would be another 16 at the 2 battalion levels. There are no infantry guns, though there are 120mm FOs which an ID in this era would not have.

These are all quibbles about the design. Overall it is way too much variety and fiddling bit while essential combined arms features are missing. Some of them prevent a realistic tactical approach, like missing on-map mortars. The HMGs being seriously reduced detracts in a fight this long (60 odd turns). All the extra light armor is unhistorical and means the infantry and assault gun tactics Model planned are harder to apply. It is modernized "everybody has a car" razzle-dazzle instead. I don't fight that way and Model was right about the necessary force mix for this sort of fighting, so I will try to save those for late.

The artillery budget is 2 150 rockets, 2 150 tube (the serious stuff here), 2 105 tube (less than they'd have for the other stuff but OK), 2 120, and the relatively useless 81 FOs (much rather have 12 on map). There are 6 infantry companies and 18 small pioneer squads, which can be split up to make 4-6 teams. The HMGs and FOs naturally make 6 modest weapons groups, each 4 HMGs and an FO.

The terrain screams enemy counterattack from the right flank. The watercourse leads to the objective with full woods-pines cover, and shields against approaches from the right. It should be a defensive shield, and the attack proper confined to the streambed (by infantry) and left bank scrub, between the watercourse and the railroad. As the right may face armor attack, it is the natural place for the PAK. I'd like to string those along the stream as I advance, with pairs near my set up, a few hundred yards on, and the last about half way to the town, all oriented right-front. They will need Elephant support too, which in the meantime can help the infantry take the watercourse to the half-way mark.

One early decision is whether to try to take the small village just across the bridge, right ahead of the set up area on the right flank. It would provide an anchor to the right side defense plan, and the option later to cross there and attack up the right bank. If it isn't heavily defended this is ground well worth having. Infantry scouts will check it out.

The streambed attack will be a two company affair with one platoon of Elephants in support, split into pairs supporting each company. One will recon the right bank and attack up the stream lengthwise. The second company will try to close with the stream a bit farther up, from the left. PAK behind these. For arty support they get the 2 120s, each also gets a small pioneer group for mines etc.

The main effort will be in the scrub on the left, by 3 companies, 2 up. Each up company gets a StuG platoon, the back one gets the Pz IIIs (to hose infantry with their MGs mostly). Up companies get 105 support and 81 support for smoke if wanted, back one a single 150 support. The on map 81 HTs go with the back company here, with ATG killing their role. Up companies also get pioneer groups (each 4 teams, 2 FTs).

The reserve is the last infantry company and the second platoon of Elephants, initially just overwatching. They also get the last 150, and a leftover small pioneer group (2 teams, 1 FT). These guys will be in most of the 251s, and the Flak will hang out with them (mission air defense only).

Rockets planned map fire on the town proper, not right away but soon, lest the shorts hit my own guys.

There are gobs of light armor, too thin for serious leading but very useful against infantry late. 4 PSW, 4 20mm SPW, 12 small MG SPW. They intend to sit out the whole first half, until the enemy AT net is worked over. The light SPW occasionally repositioning teams etc. Kubelwagens are on AT mine-finding detail.

When the reinforcement company arrives, it will become the reserve and release the starting one - if it hasn't already been sucked in. There are 3 different armor platoons promised, and the new guys will only need one to work with them. The others can be fed forward to replace lost AFVs as warranted. As a preliminary expectation, I will probably put the StuGs behind the main effort supporting the others there, and the Pz IVs on the right, supplimenting the PAK (expecting tanks from the right, thus turrets wanted, and ATGs on the left thus 80mm fronts wanted, etc).

That is an initial plan and tasking for a fight this size. Actually implimenting it will be work. If the right side stuff takes the first half of the stream and shields me in that direction adequately, two thirds of my overall weight will hit the town from the left front, and work their way in from left factory sector, over to right. Don't expect an immediate feedback kind of AAR, this sort of thing takes a lot of time per move.

[ December 20, 2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Cuirassier]

Thankyou very much for the brilliant comments. Yes, I do expect a detailed AAR to take a long time, though I think it would be worth the wait. I have read many of your tutorials JasonC, and have found them very helpful, but they are all much smaller scale than this scenario. Thus, I thought it could be helpful if you showed me, and others if they are interested, how to conduct an attack with large forces, that I often find overwhelming.

Your information was very helpful, and I will apply it when I play this scenario again. Also, I never noticed this scenario had so many inaccuracies too. Never noticed, as I do not know stanard TO and E, although I felt there was a shortage of on map mortars. Lastly, thankyou for answering and giving me an awesome battle plan. Now I can feel like a military genius if I win!

Thanks! Looking forward to an AAR-that is if you want to spend the tons of time one needs to invest in this giant scenario.

[Cuirassier]

Hi. Just wondering if any progress is being made on some AAR's, or if this has become a dead subject. I realize this scenario will take a long while, but I just want to know if anyone is actually doing it, because I would love to see some AAR's. I have not had a chance to play the scenario again myself yet, Christmas in all, but will be soon. Thanks.

[JasonC]

No it is not dead. So far I've set up. No I am not kidding. lol.

[Cuirassier]

Wow!

That is all to be said.

[Cuirassier]

Oh, and please keep me updated on your progress if you can. I would enjoy to see how things turn out piece by piece.

[JasonC]

2 turns finished. An IL-2 showed up on turn 2. All flak engaged it of course. It still got a couple of halftracks. There were motionless since set up in scattered trees, but still targeted. Joy. See why they didn't even bother with the things in a fight like this? Nothing else happening yet, infantry just advancing cover to cover. My rocket FOs got targeting orders on the factory area, but delayed until turn 10 and 11, one each.

[Cuirassier]

Awesome. Looking forward too when this is completed.

Good thing the Sturmoviks targeted the worthless halftracks though and not your infantry.

Thanks for the update!

[JasonC]

Turn 3 the Sturms do not return. I guess the Flak did its thing. Everybody was buttoned, riders all dismounted, soft and light armor vehicles all under trees - air attack SOPs. I did not delay the infantry advance.

Infantry scouts on the right have a platoon on the near side of the bridge. A single LMG to their right is scouting the first houses in the small village there, having crossed in a soft ground patch right of the bridge.

A second platoon has reached the first full woods area right by the stream, ready to head along it toward town.

Elsewhere the nearest infantry is still 1100m from the first factory. No contacts. I do see two roadblocks on the roads, and a dozen or so wire strung through open astride the left-slanting road to town.

Slow and boring so far. Lots of work, nothing fun to do yet. Infantry leading, cover to cover. Columns of vehicles have moved up only 50-100 yards behind kubelwagen mine detectors.

[JasonC]

Turn 4, first contacts with actual enemy. A T-34 is spotted just in front of the factories, 1600 yards away along the road diagonal, after it takes a pot-shot at a Kubelwagen and misses by almost 200 yards (short). An Elephant will need to move 50-70m to get LOS at 1600-1650 yards next turn, to reply.

A single Russian infantry unit is also spotted leaving some of the first houses behind the wire, headed left into some brush, where he is lost again. These positions are 675-700 yards from the forward infantry.

At the end of the minute, a Maxim is heard. A squad 700m from those first houses, with LOS to them, is "alerted", while advancing a short hop from one patch of scattered trees to another. Nor sure which of about 4 houses it is, but that is the obvious spot for the shooter. Not many places have LOS that long to the little gap he was crossing.

On the right, the first 2 half-squads dash across the bridge and scout the scattered trees beyond. They are clear. The LMG farther right checks out 2 houses, also clear. I now believe the right near village is unoccupied, though it make take another 5 minutes to check all of it etc.

Elsewhere, the creeping infantry advance continues. 675 yards to wire from the nearest, and 1035 yards to the first factory.

I see no need to modify any of my plans yet. Tactically, a single Elephant will challenge the spotted T-34. I already wish I had some of the StuHs or Brummbars the real Germans had for this work, to smash those houses just beyond the wire. In their absence, I will wait for spots or more definite targets, before using StuG HE on them.

[JasonC]

Extending realism remarks about the scenario -

very wide no man's land not really realistic for this stage of the fighting.

Sturms overmodeled, should be used with care. Also Germans had full air superiority on the 5th with only modest Russian ground attacks possible through their fighter cover on the 6th, 7th, and 8th.

The ground is far too wooded for this area of the battlefield. The ridges just west of Ponyri where the heaviest armor fighting took place were quite bare. Elevation changes blocking LOS were the main source of cover, not woods every 80 meters. Woods along the stream are fine, but rural steppe or farmland with limited tree cover would be a more realistic base terrain type.

The Germans had no halftracks on this part of the field. Even in the 18th PD, which was east of the 292nd ID. Neither the 52nd nor the 101st Pz Gdr regiments had an armored company. 18th recon had 3 motorized aufklarung, 1 heavy, and 1 PSW company, but no armored aufklarung. The 98th pioneer also had no armored company.

As for the 292nd that is supposed to be represented here, it was a leg infantry formation. One recon and two pioneer companies had bicycles, and one company in the PAK battalion was a motorized infantry company ("fast"), but with trucks not SPWs.

The armor support was Elephants, Brummbars (mostly to the east with the 86th ID it is true), StuGs and StuHs. Both of the StuG battalions supporting this corp had the 22 StuG, 9 StuH pattern, with one StuH in each platoon of 3. (The other 4 StuGs were company and battalion HQ).

There were some mixed IIIs in the Fkl companies, but not many, and used as remote controller vehicles not main battle tanks.

Compared to the real forces, the Germans here have light armor they should not, turreted tanks they should not, and they are quite light in on map HE. They should have 12 dismounted 81mm mortars, up to 4 Brummbars if the actual fight for the factory areas is intended, and 2 StuHs in the initial and 1 more in the reinforcement force. Plus they had remote controlled things that went "boom". In all, the German had vastly more HE firepower than is shown, and less armor and cover for their infantry.

Just for future reference, or if anyone wants to make a newer version of this. (Personally, I'd also cut the scale in half, at least).

(Edited because I wrote SPW instead of PSW for 18 recon's 5th company, when I was making the point they didn't have SPWs. Duh.)

[ December 30, 2005, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Cuirassier]

Thanks for the excellent reports JasonC. I am greatly looking forward to the outcome of this battle. The inaccuracies you have pointed out are also many. Indeed, it would be nice if someone made a redo of this scenario, using appropiate forces and terrain. I would, based on your suggestions, but I have limited experience.

Awesome job though!.

[JasonC]

Turn 5 didn't go so good. A StuG on the left moving up to LOS with the T-34 traded one pair of shots with it, getting hit on the front plate but unhurt, missing with its reply. Then it picks up a gun shooter on its left front at 1400m, way over on the left edge. Foxhole on a ridgeline (buglike placement incidentally). Not sure of the caliber. It got a side hit (side angle near 60 degrees) with its second shot and KOed that StuG. One of the 81mm HTs has LOS to the gun and is now firing at it. A dozen foot ones would be much better at this.

The Elephant moving to duel is still moving because it was delayed by a corner of scattered trees and the Tac AI plotted turns instead of just going through. In LOS, about 20m shy of the chosen firing position. A couple of StuGs elsewhere have LOS to the same T-34, which appears to be dug in. Their LOS lines are through trees and long, though, hit chances only 11-14%. They'd kill it, but not worth the ammo this early. The (unrealistic) trees and (realistic) huge map combine to make serious ammo use issues - you can't afford to fire every time there is LOS.

Also drew fire from an AA halftrack in trees behind the gun. Perhaps the whole is an AA position and the gun an 85mm? A StuG gets one side penetration on this HT and it reverses into the woods. Its fire pinned one green squad hit in the open, but it makes it to cover fine and nobody is hit.

Distance to the wire is now 600m for the nearest unit. Factory still 1025m but to several now.

On the right, I accelerate the scouting as I don't expect the mini-village to be occupied. A full platoon is across, plus several LMGs, by the end of the minute. I am also moving 2 PSWs up to the bridge area.

Elsewhere the infantry advance continues. Not happy with the StuG loss, but I expect to get the gun and the dug in T-34 before long, in reply.

[Cuirassier]

Unfortunate that you lost a Stug. I guess it was inevitable, and the unrealistic force mix works against you.

Thanks for the regular updates!

[Cuirassier]

Just checking if you have made any progress with your Ferdinand against that T-34.

[JasonC]

Haven't run a turn since I got back from a vacation. I'll get to it. As I said, this isn't going to be instant feedback.

[Cuirassier]

Oh, you were taking a vacation. Sorry.

By no means am I trying to rush you. I am just excited to see how this turns out, thats all.

Thanks for the fast reply.

[JasonC]

Turn 6 I kill the first 85mm AA on my left. Another is now firing. Not too dangerous at these ranges, as long as I face it. One StuG is turning to present only front armor, with a slight window of potential high side angle side hits for perhaps the next 15 seconds. I have enough firing back that I should kill the second in 1-2 minutes. (This one is in wheat). The AA HT behind is still functional, getting off a couple shots at infantry then retreating into its woods again. I put the 2 tube 150 on its trees. See if a lucky treeburst shuts it up. Probably overkill and I may cancel it, but right now I'm willing to try ~5 rounds.

I pick up a second dug in T-34 in front of the factory area. I hit the first with 3 shots from a StuG at 1200m, but all bounce. The Elephant misses 4 times in a row. Eating my AP, that's the only problem. Hit chance from the Elephant reads 20%. Another StuG with a poor hit chance is targeting one of them, I cancel his order.

My infantry are now 610m from the wire and 960m from the factory at the nearest. They continue to advance everywhere. A few more Russians are spotted just behind their wire, including some in trenches etc. Realistically it is going to be turn 15 before I engage there with infantry, making perhaps 50m per minute between now and then. In the meantime I expect to KO the AA position on the left and the dug in tanks, losing too much ammo to do it but little else.

[JasonC]

Well it turns out that 85mm was only pinned, not yet KOed. It fires once more, doesn't hurt anything, but will consume more ammo. I also pick up a 3rd in the battery, over on the extreme left in some scattered trees.

It is completely silly that the scenario focuses on dueling 85mm AA guns at 1.5 to 2 km yet removes all the German 81mm mortars from their OOB arbitrarily. Whatever, the 2 tracked ones will just have to work a little harder.

I KO the first of the dug in T-34s in the center. The other has reverted to a flag, presumably because some of my tank drivers buttoned and it isn't firing at the moment etc.

No losses, just ammo expenditure. On the AI side, a half dozen infantry units are seen running from my right toward my left just behind the wire, presumably leaving well-sited trench positions covering the wire, to form a rugby scrum in the tiny huts around the foremost flag.

Infantry advance continues, with pauses a few places to rest "tiring" men. One company is on the river area and astride it, now oriented toward the town. The second is nearing the last trees on my side of the road, shy of the river closer to town. On the left, still in the woods straight in front of the wire "bow" and well shy of it.

The near right-side village has been scouted and I have 2 PAK ready to run over there now. 2 PSWs are just over the bridge, scouting the route the PAK will take for vehicles.

[JasonC]

More extreme range fire exchanged with the AA battery. I pin them, they don't die, they don't hurt me. More ammo to spend next turn. A spotting round from the 2 tube 150 comes in, long.

I pick up a log bunker in the middle behind the wire. A StuG has LOS to it at just under 800m, but trees in the way cut the hit chance to 8%. Not remotely worth it. A few other Maxim sound contacts. They aren't hurting my infantry.

My own HMGs can see Russians running around behind their wire for no reason, but hold their fire. They have 400m arcs. No point in merely pinning fire when they will have 5 minutes or more to rally. I do call some 105mm in that area, to register it.

Distance to the wire for the nearest infantry is now 545m. To the factories, 900m. Still no re-acquisition of the second dug in T-34, despite 2 Elephants with LOS to its flag location. I might try a narrow vehicle arc for them next turn, see if they can pick it up.

Rockets are now not far out, time wise. Could have been 5 minutes later, would have been fine.