c3k Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Gents, I've just finished reading El_Cid's scenario pack thread and had a few thoughts. Before I continue, thanks are due to Keith Miller et al. for the Scenario Depot, the designers who contribute to the selections there, and folks like El_Cid who try to provide a missing service to the rest of us. The Scenario Depot is the single most useful CMBO/CMBB resource available. Short of using QB's or my own designs, the scenarios and ops available there are what keep these games fresh. The greatest shortcoming is the manner in which the files are downloaded: one selection at a time. The files are small, but the time required to get them is long. This is because you can only do one at a time. Hence, the utility of posting large packs. Additionally, I do not know how to search the Depot for specific scenarios, e.g., an July, 1943 German assault vs. Soviet defend, tank heavy action . Or any other style or theme of scenario. You must look each one up, individually, and read whatever write-up is included. These are currently only sorted alphabetically. There are two solutions: someone can do all the work by hand, then post a link to the files. El_Cid has done this. Thank you. A (better) solution, but hypothetical, would be to have search fields at the Scenario Depot. Drop down menus which offer search options. Submitted scenarios and ops would include data for these fields. (Armor, day/night, climate, DESIGNER, turn length, AI suitability, etc.) Then, as you find scenarios which catch your interest, you add them to a "download when done" cache. (Perhaps limit it to a couple of dozen at a time.) Click, presto, I have access to the works of others in which I am interested. Until (and unless) the Scenario Depot is able to do this, it is only natural that others will do it themselves. It is disappointing that some designers do not recognize that. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG-42 Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Originally posted by c3k: The Scenario Depot is the single most useful CMBO/CMBB resource available. Together with www.cmmods.com of course 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzertruppe Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I agree........the "Scenario Depot" is great! Hopefully some of the "corporate" scenario designers will see that distributing their work in a user friendly way is "GOOD" for getting their work recognized! I would be honored to see my scenario played by other CM fans! Keep up the good work designing great scenarios but,lets not turn the Combat Mission games into the "Enron" of wargames. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Gee, what do you all call the stalingrad pak? Or the runepaks? Scenario paks are good, when the authors give permission for redistribution. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I hope this thread gets locked up, as we already have a discussion going on this. The packs go against the entire reason of having a Scenario Depot. This designer uses the download stats as a form of feedback. Since 900 people have downloaded one of my battles and only 3 people have reviewed it, the other 897 forms only a statistic - but it is still satisfying to see that number climb, and tells me there is something about that scenario that has sparked an interest somewhere. It also tells me that if I am unhappy with the scenario, there is sufficient interest to make necessary revisions. By having a third party release the work without permission, I have no access to this data. If anyone is too lazy to flip through the depot for two minutes to find a scenario that interests them, they will probably be too lazy to take ten minutes and write a solid review that would be of value to the designers. Feedback - whether subjective or statistical - is an important way of keeping designers informed and better able to improve their efforts. That is of more benefit to gamers and the community as a whole than the ability to download 200 scenarios at once. And really what difference does this pack make? You still need to take the time to pick out one you like. Are you telling me it is easier to do that from the title alone - which is all the pack gives you - or from the depot, where review and a lengthy description of the scenario itself resides? You still need to take the time to select which one you are going to play!! And I don't see how this helps you in anyway do that, aside from the "dollar sign" suffix, which is insulting anyway, since it doesn't account for scenarios not reviewed, or unfairly reviewed (see my original post). If supporting the community's designers is unimportant to you, hey, that's fine, but you have no right to complain when we don't want to make it easier for you to not support us! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergerbitz Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I agree the scenario depot provides a very useful resource for designers and those looking for scenarios. Feedback is always nice for those putting their works of art on the line -- whether negative (to provide learning and restructuring) or positive (to reinforce the designers good efforts). The problem with the scenario depot is it's rather unwieldy. I just tried to search for a collection of PBEM and 2-player scenarios and came up with nothing. What I like about the scenario packs is the scenarios are grouped by type -- PBEM compatibility, solo player compatibility, historical events, etc. Sure I have to take the time to select one out of the pack, but with the packs I know I'm in the right ballpark. Don't get me wrong, I like the scenario depot a great deal. One can have the most thorough lump of information available, but to limit it's searchability results in people going elsewhere. I beleive it is in the designers' best interests to make it easier for the users to support them. They want feedback? Then make it as easy as possible. It doesn't take many obstacles (imagined or real) for me to lose interest in responding to someone's efforts and I don't demand that others rise above their aversions to do so either. Its human nature. As for who has what rights...well, we all have the right to be here. What we do with our time and energy becomes privelege. I like El_Cid's scenario packs. Nice 'n' tidy. I probably won't personally e-mail him and thank him, though. I am a profoundly lazy man and I don't pretend to not be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laox Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 The root cause of this kerfuffle is the scenario website is not functional enough (actually, either of them). It should offer scenario packs, and a better layout. Frankly, and no disrespect intended to the webmaster (either of them) because he is not getting paid to do it, the site could be much MUCH better, and then there would be no competition from people solving the problems it has. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid_Cagi Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Originally posted by Oberst Bergerbitz: I like El_Cid's scenario packs. Nice 'n' tidy. I probably won't personally e-mail him and thank him, though. I am a profoundly lazy man and I don't pretend to not be. Don't worry, your message has been received. I understand you since I'm also the lazy man type, so I have left my CM page as it was, only removed the links to the packs, and everyone is happy again ( as can be seen here) Just try to overcome your laziness in the future, go to the Depot (it's the best scenario site) and give some feedback here and there [ January 05, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Scenario Packs are the best thing around and I wish to voice my approval of them. It is a pain to have to download the darn things one at a time. With all the gobal egos aside, El Cid_Cagi should be applauded for this idea. Even though Green Bay got hosed (real good) I say, bring the packs back! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Even if there wasn't the issue of scenario designers being able to gain feedback on d/l stats & reviews for scenarios, it would still be wrong to host them without getting prior permission from the creator. That's always been my understanding of the way things are and this was the case before the SCENARIO DEPOT opened and i don't see what's changed since. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Manx, you hit the nail on the head. I would have had no problem with the scenario packs had I been contacted and asked ahead of time. I think most of us remember the scramble to get the permissions for the original CMMOS mod sets. Scenarios would be alot easier--you are just dealing with individual authors rather than entire chains of authorship. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Panzertruppe: I agree........the "Scenario Depot" is great! Hopefully some of the "corporate" scenario designers will see that distributing their work in a user friendly way is "GOOD" for getting their work recognized! I would be honored to see my scenario played by other CM fans! Keep up the good work designing great scenarios but,lets not turn the Combat Mission games into the "Enron" of wargames. :cool: Okay, this is by far one of the dumbest posts I have seen. "Corporate"? "Enron"? My mind reels with sarcastic replies. Yes, scenario packs are "good". No, we are not making money at designing. No, we are not defrauding shareholders and employees of their pensions. No, we're not incorporated. This sort of inane class warfare commie-bullsh*it has no place on this board. Nevertheless, it allowed me to rant: therefore, more self-righteous banter is appreciated. F 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Well Franko, you must have done something wrong then, because I am raking it in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzertruppe Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 When something "Simple" like a CM fan takes his time to offer other CM fans a "Simple" way of inhancing players enjoyment of their game, they should not be "flammed" by a few designers because those designers feel that their work is paramount to the holy friggin "GRAIL"!! This forum has been getting way to friggin political. Almost....(your favorite word Franco)......CORPORATE! It's "Corporate America" that destroyed some of my favorite wargame companys( SSI,Talonsoft,Avalon Hill,Atomic,ect). Can't we just enjoy our hobby without all the "Thats mine not yours". There are guys who play and design scenarios for the RTS game Sudden Strike who average around 100-200 hours to design a single scenario, but you dont see these guys whinning about "thats mine not yours". Granted..most of those guys don't give a crap about how un-real their game is but they still enjoy their hobby and leave politics out of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Panzertruppe, I suggest you read Post 119 in the other thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Keth Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by c3k: Additionally, I do not know how to search the Depot for specific scenarios, e.g., an July, 1943 German assault vs. Soviet defend, tank heavy action . Or any other style or theme of scenario. You must look each one up, individually, and read whatever write-up is included. These are currently only sorted alphabetically.All, there are search pages for each category, as illustrated below: Although not every field associated with a battle or operation is available for searching, this mechanism still provides you with a method for finding CMBO/CMBB battles, operations, and maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Reich Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I have a scenario which is (was) in one of El Cid's packs. I would not have a problem with it had he posted here on the forum before hand or something. It would be tough to get a hold of each scenario designer to ask their permission. Given the fact that the scenarios are as they were and were not tampered with, I didn't get too upset seeing my work in one of his packs without being asked. I expected something like this to happen when I submitted the scenarios to the depot. I could understand why some of the "name" designers out there might be upset over this, though. But not too many people downloaded and played my scenario as opposed to what B&T, Der Kessel, etc., who have had hundreds of downloads of their stuff. I can see why they would take offense to not being asked their permission. But me, I just like the idea that a few more people might find my scenario in the 1P pack as opposed to being lost at the depot. If I can touch just one more life, it would all be worth it. Since so many people objected to the scenario packs, and there is almost no way to contact every designer and get their permission, it is probably a flawed idea. A good idea, but not possible to get to work without pissing someone off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dullard aka flyingcursor Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Scenario depot isn't the only place to get scenarios. Both combatmission.com and wargamer.com I can't believe there are so many scens on Scen Depot and yet only 6 at wargamer.com. I know I want mine on as many sites as possible. If 50 people upload 50 scens on one site, the first few are going to be buried. When I get them finished. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Das Reich: Since so many people objected to the scenario packs, and there is almost no way to contact every designer and get their permission, it is probably a flawed idea. A good idea, but not possible to get to work without pissing someone off.I agree that it's a good idea but I would argue that it is doable. Pick the scenarios you want in a pack and contact the designers. Post the pack with only the scenarios that you get permission for. The material that you do not receive permission for (either explicitly or through no response) should not posted, but there are still many scenarios out there that were designed by people that are easily reachable and certainly happy to get the extra publicity. I personally would like to see a scenario pack of "first time offerings" or something to that effect. The ideal pack would contain quality material from independant designers that might otherwise be overlooked if it was just released at the depot without so much as an announcement in the Scenario Talk forum. Scott 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Much noise about nothing IMHO. Someone wants to include one of my scenarios in a pack, NP. E-mail would be nice, but not required. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Reich Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Scott B: I personally would like to see a scenario pack of "first time offerings" or something to that effect. The ideal pack would contain quality material from independant designers that might otherwise be overlooked if it was just released at the depot without so much as an announcement in the Scenario Talk forum. ScottNow that is a great idea. Call it the CMBB "Rookie Pack". Very nice idea, someone do it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubertracker Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Maybe a solution... I have copied the file names in the scenario packs to an Excel file (five pages: one for each pack and a total list). Have to update it with the newest scenarios since El Cid did the original work. Also wanted to punch in some otehr data like points, map size, and whether it's on the CD or now. There are no files included, just file names. Anyone interested? I can post or email the file now for others to finish, or you can wait until I have a few spare hours to complete it - probably this weekend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sgt. Emren Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Another solution would be if the Depot created the packs. If anyone has an overview of the scenarios, surely the people at the Depot are the ones to ask? The authors have already given their permission to the Depot to host their scenarios. Wouldn't this solve the problem??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Originally posted by Sgt. Emren: Another solution would be if the Depot created the packs. If anyone has an overview of the scenarios, surely the people at the Depot are the ones to ask? The authors have already given their permission to the Depot to host their scenarios. Wouldn't this solve the problem???Nope. I wouldn't want my scenarios as part of a pack no matter who hosts it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theike Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 im butting in surely... however there are 2 package's from me on on the CM Mod Database. And in their maps section there are the lattest better one's...(since they have a mapssection, i send them in one by one. I prefer the cm mod database, cause they show u pics of the places u have to run into. Since i take it u folks are into all kids of maps, i just thought id tell u......cause u wont find these on your senario depot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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