Decimation of the GD and others

[MPK]

Just finished rereading Omer Bartov's

"Hitler's Army"...

I would be grateful if those people on

this forum who have done serious research

into the subject could post on whether

or not the casualty figures Bartov gives

for his example formations (18th Panzer,

12th Inf and GD) are as he says- i.e that

such formations were decimated time & again

and rebuilt almost entirely from scratch...

Thanks in anticipation,

Matt

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MPK:

Just finished rereading Omer Bartov's

"Hitler's Army"...

I would be grateful if those people on

this forum who have done serious research

into the subject could post on whether

or not the casualty figures Bartov gives

for his example formations (18th Panzer,

12th Inf and GD) are as he says- i.e that

such formations were decimated time & again

and rebuilt almost entirely from scratch...

Thanks in anticipation,

Matt

Bartov is a lousy source. If you want to know about the GD, Spaeter's divisional history is a bit better, but it is still low on stats.

The GD WAS shattered again and again - some figures from Spaeter are on my GD site. This was common to all units of all armies, though, if they were in action long enough. Even Canadian battalions that landed in France in July 1944 were usually rebuilt at least once by April 1945. Casualty rates for them were 200%+ in 10 or 11 months of combat.

GD was exceptionally hard hit due to the nature of its employment - it was nicknamed "die Feuerwehr"...

[MPK]

Thanks, Michael...

"The GD WAS shattered again and again - some figures from Spaeter are on my GD site. This was common to all units of all armies, though, if they were in action long enough".

Bartov uses this shattering & rebuilding

of GERMAN units to support his contentious

point: that the Wehrmacht in the end MUST

have been sustained by ideology and harsh

discipline because the 'primary groups' that

most authorities believe are the bedrock of an

army's ability to fight (personal loyalties at

the platoon-company-bn level) were destroyed...

Given that near-total destruction and repeated rebuilds of formations isn't just a German experience, what sustained other nation's troops?

Interested in any informed comment...

Thanks again,

Matt

[Michael Dorosh]

Bartov draws wild conclusions from facts not in evidence and is not to be trusted, in my opinion. Being Israeli, you can imagine he might have a bit of a bias as far as WW II Germany is concerned. He tries too hard to prove that political indoctrination was responsible for 'barbarization' of the German Army, and does poorly at it.

What sustained other nation's troops? Well, nothing - they died off in large numbers and were replaced. Battle fatigue, combat exhaustion, call it what you want, it was rampant in the world's armies. Trouble with the German Army was that they didn't recognize it as a legitimate casualty type, as the Canadians, British or Americans did (General Patton excepted) and I think that is why you have so many executions in the German Army - tens of thousands of executions, in fact.

I can use my own regiment as an example - the Calgary Highlanders landed in Normandy in July 1944 with a full strength of 800+ officers and men. In 10 months of campaigning (with a long break at Christmas), they suffered 430+ fatal casualties - that's half the battalion killed - and 1600+ wounded. In other words, the battalion turned over at least twice. And if you look at the rifle companies, who accounted for 400 men of the battalion, and who suffered the majority of the casualties, well, the fighting strength of the battalion probably turned over 3 or 4 times.

And that was nothing unusual. What sustained the unit was a regimental identity, a sense of purpose - all the same things the Germans had, really. We had no need for political indoctrination, and I'm not sure that it was all that important to the Germans. Bartov does prove that it existed - certainly the German Army had political officers almost like the Russians, and no doubt got "current events" lectures the same way Canadian, British or American soldiers did - with a certain "spin" to them that would be inevitable. But to suggest that "nazi indoctrination" made them better soldiers or created better unit solidarity is something out of Stephen Ambrose - who argues just as ridiculously that the Americans won WW II because they had democracy at home.

[ June 06, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[MPK]

Thanks Michael-

"I can use my own regiment as an example - the Calgary Highlanders landed in Normandy in July 1944 with a full strength of 800+ officers and men. In 10 months of campaigning (with a long break at Christmas), they suffered 430+ fatal casualties - that's half the battalion killed - and 1600+ wounded. In other words, the battalion turned over at least twice. And if you look at the rifle companies, who accounted for 400 men of the battalion, and who suffered the majority of the casualties, well, the fighting strength of the battalion probably turned over 3 or 4 times."

-Bartov suggests (by omission) that only the

Germans suffered such decimation, and therefore

came up with a typically German solution....

Advanced Nihilism. The soldier's letters he

uses to support this argument are overwhelmingly

those of tertiary educated young men...

I myself was totally full of **** at that age...

[coe]

Calgary Highlander? On a technical note is this an inherited name or are there Highlanders (in the Scottish, Jacobite sense) in Canada?

Conan

[David I]

Conan,

It might suprise you to learn that there are/were Highland Regiments raised in almost all of the colonies settled by Britain. There are still Highland Regiments in South Africa, Australia, Canada and Great Britain. Both the North and the South raised Highland Regiments during the American Civil War.

Their commonallities include:

1. Usually raised by and recruited from Scottish elements within that country (although not exclusively).

2. Kilted

3. Bagpipes

4. Usually, although not necessarily, with a link to one of the Scottish Highland Regiments.

The way things are heading in Great Britain, Canada may have more Highland Regiments than Britain in the next few years.

DavidI