Treeburst155 Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I've noticed that AREA targetting into brush and trees with at least SOME AFVs often results in the firing unit being hull down to the target point. This is true even on a pool table flat map. It is easily seen by setting parameters to a clear night (vis 198m) and area targetting through a large patch of brush. I'm using an SU-122 for the test. Now, the unit CANNOT be physically hull down. It could however have it's lower portions hidden by the vegetation. IOW, the hull is concealed, but not really protected (cover) by something solid. Is this why we see the hull down indication under the targetting unit? This is of some concern for two reasons. One, it's difficult to come up with a reasonable explanation of the hull down status (pool table map). Two, hull down HE throwers don't do too well, as has been mentioned in previous threads. If anyone would like to investigate this phenomenon it's easy to set up in the editor. You will have to play the scenario however; because it only happens when you are targetting, not simply checking LOS. Treeburst155 out. [ January 05, 2003, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BrauHaus Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I would like to see BFC chime in on this one. Treeburst, I have see what you are talking about in the CD scenario Royal Opponent (I posted in another thread about Hull Down). Spolier Alert: + + + + + + + + + + + + Basically, the Axis has a number of King Tigers and the Allies have many T-34. Basically, T-34s that won't fire Tungsten cannot penetrate a KTs turret from any range - front side or back. About the only place they can penetrate is the side hull armor at a nearly perfect 90 degree shot. Royal Opponent has many wheatfields on a very flat (pool table) map. To ambush the KTs you have to use the obstructed view of the wheatfields. However, if a KT is in a wheatfield, the TacAI sees them as Hull Down to the attacking T-34 and the T-34 only ever shoots at the turret! And then retreats or usually gets pasted. However, as you say, there is a difference between Hull Down Cover and Hull Down Concealment. The TacAI should be smart enough to know the difference and also know they need to fire below the visible line of the wheatfield to strike the tank's hull. I think this is a limitation of the Hull Down designation that needs to be reviewed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Reading this an interesting historical simularity just popped into my head. During one of the India-Pakistan wars the Pakistanis were moving through corn or something (maybe bamboo) that was taller than the tanks. The Indians were above and wasted the Pakis by firing at the head of the wakes. The Indian tanks never saw the Pakistani tanks but killed nearly all of them. It would be helpful to find out if the difference between cover and concealment is taken into account with hull down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Correction, you CAN see this in the editor. Simply trace LOS across brush on a clear night on a flat map. About 90 meters or so into the brush you will see the "hull down" message appear by the VEHICLE. What you can't do in the editor is target. This "hull down" message appears when sighting through brush, grain, or rough, to a point inside the terrain feature. The AFV is in clear terrain not too far from the edge of the terrain. This is on a dead flat map. Treeburst155 out. [ January 05, 2003, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimorocca Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 TReeburst, I started a similar "when Hull down is enough" to ask when the tacai feel that hull down is reached. I've asked because I've the sensation that sometimes the goal to have the cover wasn't get but the tanks stopped. May be your post is the answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Yeah, I think something is not quite right with the hull down stuff. We have HE rounds hitting right in front of hull down firing vehicles, and we have hull down status of firing vehicles achievable on flat maps. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I'm thinking this is a VERY tricky LOS game engine thing. something was fixed in V1.01 that made wheat and gras block LOS, (remember the compliants about seeing RIGHT through wheat fields like they were there?) Does that mean that this new v1.01 tweak suggests that when a unit is in the LOS shadow of the wheat/grass the game engine reciprocates and feeds back to the user that the tank is hull down to a location or a unit because of the new tweak so the grass/wheat blocks LOS is causing the hull down status? (or something :confused: ) its JUST a guess??? BUT Treeburst does make a VERY interesting point about drawing a correlation to the hull down units firing consistantly into the ground RIGHT in front of them. (NOTE to self KEEP the infantry units away from the front of hull down tanks when they go off ) I'm sure they are looking at this issue GOOD catch to spot that issue and figure out what it is by Treeburst! Nice going! -tom w [ January 06, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Originally posted by aka_tom_w: GOOD catch to spot that issue and figure out what it is by Treeburst! Nice going! -tom wTom, You're always so POSITIVE!! Always nice to have an anti-troll around! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Originally posted by Lumbergh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by aka_tom_w: GOOD catch to spot that issue and figure out what it is by Treeburst! Nice going! -tom wTom, You're always so POSITIVE!! Always nice to have an anti-troll around!</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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