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Maybe I'm just unlucky but in various scenarios vs the computer, I keep seeing the "amazing unkillable soviet squad", in cover that is nothing spectacular (for example, "scattered trees"), standing up to four, six, eight inbound firing lines AND a tank, or two even, firing high explosives, and they simply DO NOT DIE for two, three or four minutes .. and while alive, they fire back, they panic or kill my guys..

Is this realistic?

Post match, the dead squad shows unbelievable kill totals .. 30, 40 infantry? eh? No its not a machine gun..

And .. why are tank HE rounds so pathetic against squads 20m away in foxholes or buildings? often a tank can fire 10 HE rounds at a foxhole (or at the top floor of a building) while stationary, while within spitting distance, before the little guys start twisting then leap out and hopit.. even then, they hopit, and survive more HE rounds, often disappearing into cover.. is this realistic? I thought an HE round *makes* a foxhole or crater.. why would it have so much trouble retiring the occupants?

especially in view of the power of a little MG team against infantry, whether they are in foxhole, trench, cover, or not.. yikes squads break/die/panic/melt away like ice creams on the sidewalk in july..

ok I'm done.

Anyway I just played that Zoo scenario for the first time, and got a tactical victory and all flags, would have got a major victory but for the aforementioned soviet hard men standing up for themselves for far too long ..

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Check the manual. Sometimes troops just go fanatic on you and keep firing until totally annihilated. Even a good HQ with +2 morale bonus can keep a platoon + support firing literally to the last man (well not quite but close). In my games I've only witnessed ONE 100% sure case of fanaticism (but there must have been plenty of others), one of my own panzer rifle squads took out 93 soviet soldiers while under a hail of fire. They never ceased firing, even to the last man. In certain scenarios the scenario maker might have raised the rate of fanaticism to come closer to historical accuracy. Check out the editor, it's there.

Close assaults and flamethrowers are the doom of even fanatic squads. Creep closer and assault next to the foxholes, or fry the bugger smile.gif happy hunting !

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Originally posted by Laox:

I thought an HE round *makes* a foxhole or crater.. why would it have so much trouble retiring the occupants?

It might also be that this is another case of abstraction. The idea of a ten-man foxhole is a pretty absurd one; that's called a trench. Much more sensible to dig a cluster of smaller foxholes for two or three people.
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Originally posted by Trap One:

It might also be that this is another case of abstraction. The idea of a ten-man foxhole is a pretty absurd one; that's called a trench. Much more sensible to dig a cluster of smaller foxholes for two or three people.

abstraction: IIRC, a foxhole is representing several foxholes spread over the 20mx20m tile.

edit: I can't believe I just wrote "over" with an 'f'... redface.gif

[ January 05, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Lindan ]

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ok thanks. Well I better treat them with more respect then.

But its not like they all are tough, it just appears like the tail of this bell curve stretches very far to the right, and an outlier way down there can ruin your entire day. As if robocop has suddenly materialized into the 1940s and is holding a position.

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One thing to remember is not to over estimate the power of HE or under estimate the value of cover. It takes a really big round to make an appreciable hole in the ground. Tank HE rounds are normally contact fused and so explode as soon as they hit something fairly solid. Even a small berm (4 or 5 feet thick) can provide effective cover if the tank keeps hitting the front of it (well for a while at least). Prepared positions are even more resiliant. This is why artillery fired against dug in targets will have a large number of time delayed rounds to dig in before exploding and hopefully causing fortifications to collapse. Tanks just don't have this kind of variety with their HE.

I don't know if anyone has tested it in the game but the best thing to use against fortifications in real life is a mortar. They have a high rate of fire and high enough trajectory to enable them to land inside trenches and positions without overhead cover.

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This is why I usually attach Pioneers and Flamethrower units (preferrably on an AFV) on an attack. On an assault against a defense that's expected to be tough, this is a given.

The Demo charges are great but nothing beats a FT. Getting FT units in place in one piece though is an art in itself...

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