About Shoot and Scoot...

[athlete]

Forgive me, I'm at work and this thought crossed my mind...my curious nature will not allow me to wait 2 hours til I get home.

When I choose the Shoot and Scoot command, on the 'Shoot' move, the line indicates 'Fast'...now, here is the question...would it not make more sense to choose 'Hunt' then 'Reverse', or is the 'Fast' phase the same as 'Hunt'.

My assumption is that the ability to spot targets would be much better if you were using 'Hunt', but that the tank won't 'Reverse' until it's done engaging whatever it finds, whereas in 'S&S' it'll pause and reverse regardless.

?

[mrpwase]

I never thought of that. The 'Fast' phase is just a regular 'Fast' movement command. The S&S command (if you weren't aware) involves driving fast to the first waypoint (without stopping, unless the TacAI kicks in), waiting for about 6-7 seconds, then moving to the second waypoint, also at 'Fast' speed.

But your idea would only work for cases where you want your tank to stay exposed for as long as it takes to destroy all enemy AT threats. Maybe your AFV wouldn't survive a protracted armour duel, in which case you just want it to have a quick try, then go back behind cover - or cause a distraction.

I'll keep your idea in mind, thanks.

[Kingfish]

When using shoot and scoot it is assumed that you already have a target located, and you want to pop a shot off and get back to cover, hence the "fast forward-shoot-reverse back" sequence.

If you are using hunt then you don't have a target, but are looking for one.

You may want to try move to contact and reverse.

[mrpwase]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

You may want to try move to contact and reverse.

That would result in your AFV stopping completely when it sees anything, which usually isn't that good. At least, not IMO.

[athlete]

Well, the big advantage I see in Hunt/Reverse, or even MTT/Reverse would be that your tank would stop as soon as it was ABLE to take a shot, rather than to a fixed point...thus your hull-down positioning ought to be optimal...or closer to optimal anyway...

btw, are there degrees of hull down modelled, or is the percentage chance to hit always the same when the LOS tool indicates hull down?

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by athlete:

btw, are there degrees of hull down modelled, or is the percentage chance to hit always the same when the LOS tool indicates hull down?

As I understand it, each AFV has two points in it's 3-D model, one for the hull and the other for the gun. In a turreted tank these points are stacked one atop the other, while an assault gun like a StuG III has them more or less in the same location.

Thus, when you give an AFV a "seek hull down" command it will do so from the POV of the top point (gun). It is like giving the TC a move to contact order, but instead of having an enemy unit trigger when the vehicle stops it instead is looking for a designated spot on the map.

So, to answer your question, the degree of which a unit is hull down is determined by the actual profile of the vehicle. If you had a Panther and M3 Grant side by side, and ordered them to seek hull down on the same spot, the Panther would have more of its hull down. The M3 grant considers its hull mounted 75mm its primary weapon, so it would reveal all of its superstructure before it achieved hull down.

[The Colonel]

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain the game engine does not account for degrees of hull down. Just go into the scenario editor and set two opposing tanks across from each other on ridgelines. The probability of a hit is exactly the same for a hull down vehicle, regardless of how much you tweak it up or down the ridgeline. I used to go to great pains getting my tank guns to barely peak over a ridgline, but now I don't think it matters. It's hull down or not. Plus, remember that the terrain graphics that you see aren't necessarily exactly the same level as the terrain being modeled. So you couldn't really eyeball a perfect hull down position anyway.

[Slappy]

You are correct in that hull down is binary not continuous. There is no turret down and no degree of hull down. All are the same for to hit percentages. All vehicles are indeed two dimensionless points for sighting purposes. Right or wrong, you can either see the whole thing, only the top half or none. There are no shades of grey.

That said, degrees of relative elevation are considered in the penetration equation, so you may be better off in a more sloped hull down position than a less sloped, but only for penetration purposes.

[flamingknives]

The big problem with hunt/reverse is that once the tank has engaged, it will remain fighting until all targets are destroyed. By then it will probably have 'forgotten' about the Reverse bit.

[Brent Pollock]

...and this loses the "safety" aspect of scooting. Usually whenever I've tried H/R instead of S&S, I've ended up losing the vehicle because it hangs about too long.

[yuvuphys]

I'd like to see a shoot 'n scoot that used 'move to contact' and reversed from that point after shooting a few times.

[athlete]

Originally posted by yuvuphys:

I'd like to see a shoot 'n scoot that used 'move to contact' and reversed from that point after shooting a few times.

Yeah, this would make sense.

[Sivodsi]

but even 'hull down' is not fully 'hull down'. If you are in this position you can still get destroyed by a penetration in the upper hull.

[throwdjohn]

If the problem is being hull-down as you shoot, simply go to view level one, and eyeball your shoot point. For good practice in shoot and scoot try the scenario " ! A series of misfortunes!" that comes with the CMAK companion pack. i still havent got it, but im workin on it.