Playing with a conscience...

[Jack Carr]

I lost a Panzer IVH to a Soviet infantry squad using molotovs just recently. I know what your thinking, "What the hell is he doing letting his armor get that close to enemy infantry un-supported?". I had a Panther and a MK IV shelling a vicious infantry attack on a friendly trench line that was in jeopordy of being over-run. A fanatical Soviet infantry squad charged my panzers from the side and knocked out the MK IV with a molotov. I couldn't let the men in the trenches just die, I felt I had to do something. Does anyone else out there take on a conscience when there men are in danger of being killed? In my case, I pulled up armor a little too close in order to give support. In the past, I have also revealed hidden anti-tank or infantry guns to help take pressure off of anti-tank teams that have gotten into trouble out in front of the main line of defense. It's kind of like your unit sees that it's comrades are in trouble and refuses to stand by and do nothing while they get slaughtered.

In the above case, the outcome was a major victory for my forces as the panzers had already taken out the supporting enemy armor, about 10 assorted T-34/85's and IS-2's. It was just that infantry battle against the trench line that was left and the AI just kept throwing one wave after another at it. They just had to have that trench. They did end up with the trench and my men were killed/captured that had occupied it but I made them pay a high price for that slit in the ground. Unfortunately, I lost a panzer and all the men in the trench.

[Other Means]

and what did this sacrifice bring you? NOTHING! you lost the men and you lost the tank. it's the mission that's important, if you lose sight of that there's no place for you in this mans army. those men were dead already, you knew that.

we'll need that tank next week. you'd better pray we cut of their salient to the south and can recover it. there's not many left.

place yourself under house arrest. you'll be dealt with at the Generals pleasure.

[MikeyD]

Me, lately I've been giving my forward troops withdraw commands when their ammo gets too low for them to adequately defend themselves. Much of the time I've actually been able to save their virtual little butts in the process. (Do you think troops given a 'withdraw' command seem less likely to panic in v1.03?)

My one and only tiny scenario I can boast of on the CD (A Warm Place to Sleep) gives you the mission of getting your troops in from the cold. I've had several people say that though they won the battle they felt they let their men down, getting too many killed in an attempt to get them into shelter.

[ June 23, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Richie]

Considering victory conditions take into account casualties, yes, I too try and save their virtual little... :eek: whenever I can.

(Besides, at least then I can sleep at night. )

[Edward Windsor]

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ June 23, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Edward Windsor ]

[Ligur]

I mostly play the Russians.

I often find myself handling my men quite brutally, hell bent on "glorious counter-attacks" and massed infantry assaults versus solid positions.

I try not to play utterly stupid but, no, I'm not too careful in handling my troops, either they succeed in their task or die gloriously for the motherland! Stalin requires so! And my comissars read Ehrenburg's poems during political indoctrination sessions.

[Ligur]

Just thought of something in passing.

Have any of you noticed a trend in history. Often when military leaders hold their mens lives at no value at all it usually comes coupled with utterly inept leadership or catastrophic command decisions and vice versa, and when they and are, like I say above "hell bent on glorious counter-attacks" or issue orders for fighting to the "last bullet" it usually is more for the sake of propaganda or some grand delusion rather then competence.

I felt like I was on the verge of understanding something for a while there but now its escaping my head. Hmmm. Well example:

I am just reading a book about the Spanish Civil War and both sides are shock full of totally incompetent officers, for example many of the career officers have never once commanded even a field maneuver practice let alone know what the word "maneuver" means. There is also a noticeable disregard for soldiers lives, the more so the more distant the leadership actually is from any sort of competence. A huge trend during the war was to sacrifice countless men in futile counter-attacks across open terrain. In retrospect you could think that sending untrained troops with no or untrained officers and little ammo attacking across the open with no combined arms support (a novel idea at the time) against machinegun positions manned by regular army would be, indeed, a horribly bad idea. Still this was done again and again. But you just have to think that normal common reason could deduce it is a bad idea, no need for distinguished military academies for that (ok now explain WW1 to me).

The Republic leadership bailed out of dodge when they thought Madrid was threatened, but didn't even think of telling their army where things like, well, ammo and munitions were kept so in battle the brave commoners often had under 10 bullets and after any action none. When the, also incompetent and foolish, commander of Madrid asked for ammo he was accused of trying to mask his own incompetence with minor details like no ammo at all! Instead Large Caballero could have just told him where to get ammo or organize some kind of attempt to find out where the storages were. But no. That would have required some minimun of effort.

Republican troops could be commanded by various charlatans who posed as officers from some other country with no actual military backround and often sent their men into suicidal attacks. An American unit almost lynched their British CO after enough of this and elected a new one by themselves.

Well, maybe the Spanish Civil War is not a good example because the Spaniards on top had quite a long history if just doing nothing much and letting to serfs take care of feeding them.

Stuff like this is evident in WW2 also or what do you think? The genious Red Army operations in Finland, Stalin liquidating his intelligent elite due to paranoia and then sending party activist captains to command battallions. Hitlers lunatic orders, the German high command literally working their butts off trying to get their troops inside kessels that would spell doom to the units. Fighting to the last bullet instead of retreating and returning to fight another day.

Commanders who care for their men make good commanders, someone like Himmler or poor Goering ("poor" since he quite apparently completely disintegrated) would surely suck in CM:BB. "My reduced battallion of former Luftwaffe non-combatant fallshirmjaegers shall surely capture the town and throw back the Red Army, for they are übermenschen! Nein, you must not rout! Military tribunal! Not possible? NEEEEEEEEIIIINNN" and then he would break the computer in frustration and go launch himself off a roof.

[SFJaykey]

I think you're on to something, Ligur.

As far as the original question, I definitely feel some pangs when my "men" get slaughtered, especially when it is due to my own tactical blundering. I never send them rushing off on obviously suicidal attacks, though of course I will take some big risks and have suffered my share of casualties. I also try to set up defenses where there is a covered route of withdrawl, when possible. And like Jack, I have been guilty of losing armor and other valuable units in efforts to save a few of my boys from slaughter, when no great tactical advantage was at stake.

So far this behavior has not cost me too much: I think my batting average against human opponents is still somewhere over .500. Since CMBB counts casualties for points, and casualties lower morale (which affects the effectiveness of surviving units), I think minimizing your own casualties makes a lot of sense in purely game terms. My personal motivation is not really the points, though: I get pretty immersed in the simulation and want to spare my men as much as possible because that's how I would play it IRL. Historically, I think such priorities made sense: commanders who looked out for their men won their loyalty, and were able to ask and receive more of them at later, critical points.

[ June 23, 2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[MikeyD]

Just last night I tried my first large all-infantry battle in a LOOOONG time. Everything went very well until someone started dropping mortars on an infantry platoon I had off guarding the left flank. Those poor guys were pinned in the open under mortar attack for SIX TURNS! There was nothing I could do to help. I even hunted down what I thought was the spotter and killed him, but the shells just kept falling. The main body of men was fighting and dying, but it was those poor slobs trapped and helpless under the merciless mortar attack that I felt most sorry for (snif).

[Guest konrad]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

The main body of men was fighting and dying, but it was those poor slobs trapped and helpless under the merciless mortar attack that I felt most sorry for (snif).

Common ,they knew why they are there ( at least some of them ) .Besides ,one Berlin (Moscow ) night will revert that.

[xerxes]

I take great pains to try and keep as many of my men alive as possible. Whenever an entire squad goes down, I feel particularly bad.

I don't have quite the same level of empathy for my tanks.

[pavlov]

I couldn't let the men in the trenches just die, I felt I had to do something. Does anyone else out there take on a conscience when there men are in danger of being killed?[/QB]

In playing vs AI I find myself using the Withdraw command occasionally and making other command decisions based on what I think a real-world commander or unit might do to save themselves or help their buddies. I think it makes the game more interesting. On the other hand when I play against a breathing opponent it is always kill or be killed!

[White Phosphorus]

Just because your troops get show doesn't necessarily mean that they get killed. Most of them will get a nice vacation to the rear.

[zukkov]

it helps if you don't think of your troops as being killed. this is a computer simulation afterall. just consider their program as being temporarily terminated. ahhh, that's better. now you can sleep at night. lol...

[Patrick Moore]

I think I'm too concerned with my 'digital soldiers' well being I'm a lousy player at this game and I bet the excellent armchair generals know the balance between when to save and and when to sacrifice their troops.

Reminds me of the proverb of the Spartan mother saying to her lad as he was leaving for battle: "Return carrying your shield; or carried on it!"

[xerxes]

The proper outcome of aversion is to learn to avoid getting your grunts in an unwinnable jam in the first place. Once they're pinned and the 2nd panzer is bearing down on them they're all going to kiss moter russia one last time.

I've seen many players who far to willing to send their digital charges to the death.

[Nippy]

Stuff like this is evident in WW2 also or what do you think? The genious Red Army operations in Finland, Stalin liquidating his intelligent elite due to paranoia and then sending party activist captains to command battallions.

Don't forget than among the officers liquidated were many of the proponents of combined arms warfare. Even bringing the subject up officaly usually led to a visit by the NKVD.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

I lost a Panzer IVH to a Soviet infantry squad using molotovs just recently. I know what your thinking, "What the hell is he doing letting his armor get that close to enemy infantry un-supported."

What I'm really thinking is "A molotov actually took out a tank for once?!"

[jbertles]

Men dropping like flies

Shrapnel scythes reinforcements

Bloom-less naked stalks

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Ligur:

Just thought of something in passing.

... commander of Madrid asked for ammo he was accused of trying to mask his own incompetence with minor details like no ammo at all! Instead Large Caballero could have just told him where to get ammo or organize some kind of attempt to find out where the storages were. But no. That would have required some minimun of effort.

Republican troops could be commanded by various charlatans who posed as officers from some other country with no actual military backround and often sent their men into suicidal attacks. An American unit almost lynched their British CO after enough of this and elected a new one by themselves.

Well, maybe the Spanish Civil War is not a good example because the Spaniards on top had quite a long history if just doing nothing much and letting to serfs take care of feeding them.

Reminds me of modern management . The own goals are more important than the goals of the whole. You are a part of that group that has the best career opportunities - not the group you identify with. Works best when there is no penalty for the individual if the firm fails and if failure is long-term, but success immediately. Of course, immediate success gets you into a position where the casualties left are no longer your problem.

Back to CM:

I try to preserve my men. But if thier mission is improtant and risky, they may find themselves doomed:

In any relief scenario (Korsun, Failure on the Aksay...) I look at the bigger picture and push my men much harder.

In a big battle, a plt may find itself doomed if the btn as a whole will likely suffer less.

Nevertheless I try to avoid senseless action. They are not sacrificed for nothing, and if the situation allows to extract a plt, I'll do that. Often making a point in bailing them out with all available after they did their duty and the overall situation allows for it.

Gruß

Joachim

[Parachute Hamster]

It depends really. If i play as germans or finns, i try to save as many of my men as i can, especially those helpless crewmen.

And if i play as russians, everybody who runs away has betrayed his motherland and deserves to die. "So what, if you have just some pistols? You can still shoot the enemy, right?"

By the way, have you ever had any of your crewmen actually kill something with their little pistols? I once had green 88 flak crew, that desperately tried to run back to their own lines of defence. They encountered a russians squad, that was currently falling back. I was sure, that none of my crew would survive, but it was a pretty surprise to see them shoot and actually kill all those russians without taking any casualties. After the battle i checked their stats. Yup, 6 infantry casualties caused :eek: . Don't ask me how, maybe they were a bit fanatic or something?

[Engel]

Originally posted by Parachute Hamster:

By the way, have you ever had any of your crewmen actually kill something with their little pistols?

A few times, although only against routed or panicked enemy squads; one of my panzer crews who had abandoned their tank killed off the remnants of two routed Soviet SMG squads that they run into in the woods in close combat (about 7 casualties caused) on their way back to safety.

[Screaming Flea]

On one occasion I actually felt for the enemy. I was playing the Germs in a really good defensive position. I had one of those concrete bunkers with 3 MG's in it (you know the ones).

Anywho the Sovs with a HUGE inf force decided to attack up thru an extensive barbed wire entanglement I had set up,right smack dab in the kill zone of the bunker. You can imagine the ensuing carnage , dear oh dear. There musta been 200 guys trying to get thru the wire.They were being killed wholesale. It was all I could do in the end to bring up a flame unit and incinerate maybe the 60 remaining die hards on the wire. I think the few survivors are still running back to the Kremlin... URAAA!

[Richie]

Originally posted by Parachute Hamster:

It depends really. If i play as germans or finns, i try to save as many of my men as i can, especially those helpless crewmen.

Actually, I find the hapless crews make excellent scouts. No more buwwets? hehehehe.

Well I've got a vewy special job for you... :eek:

I prefer Campaigns for this very reason. Suddenly troops become a lot less expendable when you might want them tomorrow. You don't get that mad suicidal rush in the last couple of turns to make ground like in some scenarios.

I must admit I do sometimes sacrifice troops so more can get away, you know, slow the enemy down, the greater good...

[Bruno Weiss]

What's all this SNIVILING about!!! Conscience, feelings, good will towards men baloney. Why in my day... What do they teach these kids now a days. Looky here sonny, ole Georgy himself said it best; "no poor dumb bastage ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the udder poor dumb bastage die for his country." Then he slapped the piss outta some private.

Er uh, well anyhow ya gotta grind em up in yer tank treads, roast em to a crisp wit flamethrowers, fill em full of holes and blast em outta dem houses. Crews for scouts...Bah! I capture me a crewman sneaking round, I execute the lil bastage with area fire right on the spot. Now, get a holt of yerselves, steel yer nerves boys. Give em the cold monitor!!!