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A conscript battalion attacks


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The following is an after action report of a sample attack by Russian conscript infantry against an AI defense.

It is meant to show how a numerous infantry force can attack, and in particular to show relatively new players how to beat the AI with conscripts, without tanks, and while attacking rather than defending. The assumption is that some players find this relatively hard to do. I do not consider it particularly hard, and this example is not meant to show any particular skill on my part. Just sound application of straightforward principles.

Humans are much less forgiving opponents than the AI. I have no doubt a human conducting the same defense could have made it much harder. A human selecting the defending force would also have picked a better mix of weapons. But if anyone thinks conscripts can't attack, or infantry can't attack, then it should suffice to show them that it simply isn't so. In passing, it may also show some of the principles of an infantry attack that relies on weight of numbers or depth. And in particular, to show how that weight winds up contributing to the outcome - without launching massive suicidal waves.

The report is accompanied by 6 illustrations, after 8, 12, 16, 20, 26, and 29 minutes have passed since the start. I do not show the very early turns because little happened and the movements made can be seen in the first illustration. I break up the even periods slightly toward the end, to record natural points in the battle. Each map is labeled - I regret that jpg labeling is not as clear as gif labeling, and my image hosting solution does not take the full gifs. I can clarify the text if any of it is unreadable - and anyone cares.

First I explain my force selection and tasking. The fight is in May of 1942, meant to be around the time of the failed Kharkov counterattack. The game size is 600 points but with attack odds. The terrain is village, moderate woods, gentle slopes, light damage, with medium map size. The weather is clear. Germans are

medium quality, computer selection infantry force type defenders. Rariety variable. My attacking Russians took -

conscript rifle battalion

comes with 9 platoons each HQ, 3 rifle 41, 1 rifle 41L (no LMG)

plus 3 weapons platoons each HQ, 4 maxim machinegun

also battalion HQ and 4 company HQs (very useful with conscripts)

plus 2 76mm infantry guns, and 1 82mm mortar (conscripts of course).

If I had more points, I'd want more on map 82mms and artillery prep fire. But this is what I could afford. It means I have a lot of men for a very small map. There are only 600 points of defenders and not a lot of ground. I have 68 units and 560 men. A full battalion of infantry is rather a lot in a 600 point fight.

I make 3 additional platoons built around company HQs, drawing one squad from each platoon in their respective companies. My best company HQ - with +2 command - is put in charge of the overwatch initially. The idea is he remains at the start line, and will rally anyone who routs back that far, using his very wide command radius. The battalion HQ is not very good, and is sent with a detachment on my left, in place of

a company commader for that area. Everyone needs some higher HQ to handle squads that fall behind their own platoon HQ. I now have 12 smaller platoons and my heavy weapons to assign missions and areas.

I decide my plan for the overall attack will be a wing attack on the right side of the board. My left will get a small screening force and a platoon of MMGs, which they are to get forward a few hundred yards to a body of woods near the center of the map, slightly toward my side of it, that looks like it has good LOS to all the likely defending areas. One platoon on this side will lead the way to those woods, with the MMGs trailing them if the way looks clear. The other platoon will cover the remainder of that side of the board, between the woods and the left edge. I label these "flankers" in the diagrams.

The main attack is to be delivered on my right, with 10 platoons, 8 MMGs, and all the guns - the bulk of my force. I divide this into three waves and an overwatch force. The first wave is three platoons (one of them a company HQ) and takes "point". It will advance along two routes, one platoon along the right route and two along the center one, the foremost platoon on the center route being my initial absolute point, a turn ahead of all the others. The mission of this leading wave is to get forward to cover and find the enemy. I do not expect them to be able to make real progress alone.

Starting in the same locations as this leading wave initially, is the overwatch force. This consists of all my support weapons. On my left and slightly behind the leading wave I put 2 MMGs and a platoon HQ in a pair of houses. On my right I put one MMG in a wood, along with the leading wave platoon on right axis of advance. Left of this come the 2 infantry guns, in scattered trees they can start in with keyholed LOS to a number of buildings in the village, and to some of the bodies of woods near the objectives. In the same place as the middle leading wave, I put the remaining 5 MMGs, platoon HQs, company HQ, and the 82mm

mortar (with the company HQ spotting for it). These are to move up to the edge of the first body of woods ahead of the start line, as soon as the leading wave has passed through that area. And then set up there, and support the main body by fire.

The main body of the company comes next. It is initially behind the first wave and overwatch and somewhat to the right to make use of available cover. They are packed pretty tightly into the available woods, four infantry platoons including one based on a company HQ. They are to delay stepping off until cover ahead of them thins out. They will pass through the same locations as overwatch weapons if necessary, but

need unoccupied cover beyond that to steer toward. Until there is some, they remain stationary.

Last comes the reserve, a third wave behind even this. They are all packed into a woods in the near, right corner of the map - 3 infantry platoons, one of them built around a company HQ. They won't move up until the main body aka second wave clears some of the cover ahead of them.

Note that the main body and reserve are somewhat more to the right than the point company or leading wave. The leading wave is heavier in the center and the platoon in front there leads, overall. I don't know which of the two routes the leading company plans to take will prove easier - that is another reason (besides waiting for cover that is empty) to delay sending the main body and reserve forward. There is also a slight effort at deception in this - the middle prong is initially supposed to look heavier, and the flankers on my left move out too. Making it look initially like a broad front advance with the middle bit leading. When actually the intention is very heavy right. Such deception is mostly "lost" on the AI, but it is a good practice.

How do they move out? The lead platoon uses move to contact. The others moving first can afford to wait the extra half minute for a human wave, which targets cover within 200m of each platoon so moving. The first minute is mostly command delay, with only the point platoon stepping off for the last 15 seconds or so. They

do not draw fire and continue. The first wave reaches its first few covered areas readily, then the first real intervention occurs. 81mm mortar fire drops on the second platoon along the middle axis. It hits a few men and pins half this platoons (one squad panics, sneaks backwards, recovers to pinned on reaching trees, etc).

The point platoon continues forward far enough to get clear of the mortar barrage, then halts in cover. They do not want to push onward without support, and the immediately following platoon can't provide it. The right route has therefore proven easier, and the first wave continues on that side. This gets a second platoon up level with the point platoon. The second wave now has unoccupied cover ahead of them on the right route, so they step off and start filling in that cover (some patches of rough). The next platoon behind in the second

wave company shifts to where the first one just left etc. Meanwhile, on the middle route I wait for the mortar fire to stop and then send a second wave platoon forward in place of the pinned one. The pinned one's only job is to rally. The overwatch MMGs have meanwhile moved up to the woods they wanted to reach.

Over on the left, the flanking group gets its first platoon into the woods it wants for its MMGs without incident. The MMGs start moving there, one at a time. A single MMG gets a waypoint in those woods, and a second gets a similar order padded with pauses to start at the begining of the next minute. I repeat this the following turn. So in two turns, all 4 MGs get orders to move out, and by the third minute the last is actually getting up. A few minutes later all arrive in the desired woods, move to forward positions in them, and go through their "set up" delays. The other platoon went forward on the far left, and draws 81mm mortar fire - shifted from the center area with a brief pause for the retargeting. This pins half of them, leaving one squad at a forward building on that side. But the fire hit a screening platoon, the MMGs on that side get into position, and all this takes the mortar "heat" off my main effort and burns his FO's ammo. So I am quite happy with it.

You can see the results of all of the above in the first illustration -

conbatt9overhead1pl.th.jpg

As the point company nears the village buildings, they start taking infantry fire. Some remains distant sound only at first. But soon the nearest shooter is seen in a building only 100m or so from the point. Everybody

and their brothers fires at this poor enemy squad, and it is broken very rapidly and heads for the hills. One MMG from the crowd of them on overwatch by now, is put on the fleeing remainder to prevent easy rally.

Next the point platoon tries to step off for the first rubble patch to get a foothold in the village. It draws fire from my right front, in the woods near the objective on that side. A pinned crawling squad reaches a bit of rubble.

But the rest of the platoon does not, with the HQ and another squad crowding into a single tile of trees that was already occupied to begin with. They bring fire with them and the others there soon pin. This is labeled on the next illustration as "overcrowded rally point". They are one of the principle dangers in a crowded, low quality infantry advance. They need to be clear out if possible and more of them avoided, because a good player sends HE into them after noticing the "flags" accumulating there. And that can turn momentary panic into dead.

But notice in the next illustration the effect that column depth has in this situation. The point has tried to extend the whole formation forward, but failed to do so. But the rest of the formation was not seriously at risk, and

closes up in the meantime. All the forward bodies of cover are occupied by good order friendlies, except the one patch overfilled with pinned ones. This makes every body of cover safely reached so far into a firepower

generator, a base of fire for every movement attempt.

Meanwhile, the tendency of the point to draw the available fire has kept heat off the overwatch elements. They have therefore reached their intended positions and set up. Though the range from them is longer, they add another wave of shooters with LOS deep into the enemy position, ahead of the positions reached by the forward infantry. When German shooters show themselves, guns target them, MMGs target them many to one and from multiple angles, and whole platoons of squad infantry target them from 200m away or so. The deep portions of the infantry column are not yet engaged at all. They are

just staging forward from cover to cover, closing up behind the leaders when the leaders slow.

Notice on the illustration how deep the infantry column is behind my main effort on the right. With the reserve included, there are six separate platoon waves along the right axis of advance. In the illustration, the second is lapping up against the back of the first, in the forward body of cover reached. See the yellow

path showing the route all the platoons are taking on that side, ruled off at platoon intervals front to back.

conbatt13overhead5aj.th.jpg

The firepower of the whole overwatch and the forward platoons soon has the limited shooters that have shown themselves ducking. One of the 76mm infantry guns with LOS to the body of trees some of them are in, continues to toss in HE using "area fire". With all the known defenders heads down, I step out again, all along the line. The goal is to build up the force inside the buildings in the village proper, to a

company or so of infantry. The movements forward make use of each shellhole. Some moves are made using "human wave", others move. The platoons of the left side "flankers" force are included this time. The next platoon in each wave steps up to fill the cover being vacated by the advancing attackers.

This first attack fails. Two German guns unhide as my men step into the open, and send 75mm HE

into two areas they were trying to cross. In particular, the right platoon of the flanking force, and the forward platoon of the middle group, are badly hit, with some squads halved and several routed. Some infantry fire contributes to all this, but the bulk of it is accomplished by the two unsuppressed guns.

Now, notice how the depth of the attack weathers this temporary storm. Because I was not all crowded into one wave, only two forward platoons broke. The forward bodies of cover are fully manned by unbroken infantry from the following wave. The overwatch is everywhere in position and firing. And on the sector of my main effort, the whole deep attack is intact. The reserve has not been touched. In fact, the broken and pinned platoons so far have all been in the center and on my left, one platoon in each location pinned by 81mm mortars early, and now one platoon in each location broken by on map guns. The net effect on my left is that I still have one platoon of flankers there, and the MMG platoon in position. The net effect in

the center is that I have one platoon broken and another crowded into an overpacked rally point, and only pinned weak forces in the rubble and buildings of the village proper. But immediately behind this sector I still have cover manned by squad infantry, and a powerful intact overwatch. And my right side main effort

is essentially untouched.

This illustrates a fundamental principle of depth tactics, also known as attrition tactics, outlasting tactics, or winning by the last reserve. The defenders continually need new shooters to stop new forward movements by the leading attackers. Old, revealed defenders can't get it done, because overwatch has suppressed them. To slow the advance, the defenders reach deeper into their reserves of stealth and unsuppressed manpower. (They also reach deeper into their limited ammo, when they do manage to use older shooters). When the

attacker has his firepower properly coordinated, each set of these new defenders then faces enourmous retaliation for intervening against the latest attempted advance. The defender reveals new assets, and breaks a few leading platoons. And finds those new assets broken, in turn, by the replies.

Overall, the attacker has *exchanged* the freshness and morale of his forward men, and a bit of his ammo, for a portion of the defending force. The defender needs to be able to afford these exchanges again and again, on the attacker's chosen route of attack. The deeper the attack and the more effective its overwatch

fires, the harder this is for the defender to do. We will see what happens when he runs low, or in other words isn't the one with the *last* reserve.

conbatt17overhead2gy.th.jpg

The 82mm mortar fires at one gun, then the following turn at the other - the first having pinned in the meantime. The next turn, it switches back to the first gun and KOs it rather than merely pinning it. The 76mm IGs would

help, but don't have LOS to either German gun location. One of them continues to toss HE into the Germans on my right, the other does things like shell an apparently empty trench for a turn, blow up a house some Germans were a few turns ago that turned into a lost contact, etc. The guns also receive fire from 4 MMGs at a time, and whole infantry platoons.

On my left, a flanker platoon works close to the gun on that side, through some scattered trees and around a bit of wire. They manage to get most of a platoon within 100m of that gun, and after a dicey exchange with the nearest squad, pin it for good. When a squad later gets close enough, the crew of the gun surrenders.

The base of fire on the right and the overwatch continue to do their thing, and keep the Germans ahead of them suppressed. All the forward infantry then presses. In the center, they hop from woods to shellhole to building or rubble, and over several minutes build up a full company inside the village. A number of these are pinned, but they keep increasing in numbers and some recover enough that they are firing back.

On my right, I send two platoons (one reduced a squad) into the scattered trees on the right side of the map using a human wave. They are covered by the Germans closest to them being pinned, and large scale overwatch. Some are hit and go to sneak anyway, with one squad stopping short of the targeted woods, making for a patch of rubble instead. But a platoon makes it into those trees, and is therefore now in the same connected body of cover as the pinned German defenders on that flank.

As these forces advance, the following waves fill in behind them, keeping the old base of fire positions "topped off". In the middle, the last of these have reached the forward cover. A few of the MMGs in the center group therefore displace forward, as well. The principle is, all the useful, near cover spits lead, somebody

shuffling up to keep it so as soon as the current occupants move forward. Meanwhile, the units that broke in the previous attack have retreated to cover by now, and some have rallied to a rattled "pinned".

The Germans have also shown another patch of infantry shooters in the middle of the map. These are the ones that are keeping many of the units reaching the village pinned. But they haven't stopped them, and are now the receivers of the attentions of all the MMGs. The 82mm and one of the 76mms are out of HE, so they toss smoke at a few of these to mask them temporarily. Since the present task is to

get infantry into the woods on the right and the village in the center, smoke helps me. If the task were to break the enemy, I'd want LOS in order to shoot.

conbatt21overhead6ks.th.jpg

Now it is a matter of spitting out fire from that whole company worked into the village in the center. And sending more and more men into the woods on the right, until there is a whole company there - while the first platoon to reach those woods moves up to engage the previously pinned Germans in those woods. These advances are made using "move", but short moves designed to barely get LOS to the nearest German.

Whole platoons from range, a few MMGs area firing at old positions to prevent rally, and the nearest 1-2 in good SMG range, pour fire onto each of these already well worked over defenders. And they soon collapse. In a few minutes, a whole company has worked through the woods there and killed most of the Germans there - a few hightail it out of there under distance MMG fire, routing to the back of

the map.

Meanwhile men accumulate at the edges of LOS of the one area of remaining effective defenders, that position in the center near the second objective. There is a company firing at them from the front, a platoon of flankers working closer on my left, two platoons of MMGs - one already set up and another moving forward to get a better range and wider LOS. The 76mm with HE remaining also repositions slightly to "keyhole" differently, and tossed its remaining shells into their woods. When some of them pin, heads down, an MMG or two are put on the location "area fire" to make it harder for them to pop up again.

The principle here is that the defenders need each other to protect themselves. The area chosen for my main effort is wiped out once my men reach the position. Without that portion of the defenders, the rest have no real chance against my whole battalion. Everyone can move until they have LOS to them from a good range, because firing positions no longer overlap and cover the routes forward. They can't dish out enough fire toward half the points on the compass, to stop these movements. Occasionally they get off a few shots that panic a squad - but there are scores of units and this makes

essentially no difference. A platoon facing a battalion is helpless.

In this illustration, another principle can be seen. A lot of my men that reached the village pinned at one time or another. And some took their own sweet time about recovering, being conscripts. They face long command delays before moving out. Some are rattled from previous breaks. Well, as the rest of the force advances, these are left in their bits of cover as stragglers. I have higher HQs around.

I readily gather these pinned squads into new platoons in areas of cover. As they rally, they form a new second echelon for the men ahead of them. The whole battalion thus has far better staying power than its subunits. A company can fall out, and the battalion keeps going. And that company is ready to help again by the time it is needed. I want a deep formation, and in a deep formation there is room for units that aren't required to do much immediately.

conbatt27overhead1ii.th.jpg

The last act is the assault on those few remaining defenders. There is now overwatch fire from all around them. The company on my far right re-orients leftward and fires at medium range. They don't need to leave cover and race over, and as the fight is nearly its end they don't need to conserve ammo any longer. So they blaze away happily at 250-300m, as soon as they get LOS. Meanwhile 8 MMGs are now in position and sending streams of bullets into the same little patch of woods. Closer in, infantry rings them from three sides. These all get orders to fire, and two platoons and change get a human wave order targeting the woods. One platoon HQ manages to get off a few shots as they close, which sends one of the attacking squads sideways sneaking and halved. But

they can't stop the rush, and soon a full platoon is in the same cover as the pinned remnants, and makes short work of them.

conbatt30overhead9rk.th.jpg

Overall, the defenders were annihilated while the attackers lost 38 men.

[ April 16, 2005, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

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I can't really tell through the pictures, but did the AI even use a trench? It looks like he dumped all his men on tree lines with particularly bad LOS and threw his trenches out in the open. With the same amount of artillery / infantry guns and maybe half the platoons that battle could still be won with some difficulty. I know you mention the AI sucking but it just isn't even close to having a human opponent set that up. He would've used trenches, put stuff in better LOS and used proper fire control, all of which the AI doesn't. Defender in trees = bad!

You should try the same thing versus a human!

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Yes the AI used some of the trenches, in the middle. Didn't make much difference, as there weren't enough men in them. The force in the woods on my right was perfectly effective and not approachable as set up. But after the forward unit covering the right entrance was routed, ranged fire at 100-150 meters protected that map edge "entrance" I did the human wave through, but nothing closer than that. And the units that close were heads down, because they'd been shot up by a company at 200-250m, half a dozen MGs a bit farther, and 40 rounds of 76mm, for ten minutes.

I'm sure a human could have done better, but the things you've mentioned wouldn't have made the slightest difference. He didn't need wider LOS - if anything he needed positions out of LOS of my overwatching MGs. He had adequate cover, there just isn't any adequate cover against entire companies wailing on individual squads for five minutes. No, the biggest thing a human would have done is take bigger caliber arty instead of 81mm, and put in on well occupied cover later in the real firefight, instead of just slowing the approach. And sent direct HE into crowded rally points. (Because what is actually scarce in such an attack is room for all the men).

As for fire discipline and decisions when to open up, they could be improved but can't stop such an attack. If you wait and wait, there are companies in front of you at 100m when the first squad approachs your actual positions. If you fire early with everyone, you run out of ammo. If you delay with a few, they get chewed through in sequence. You can pick your poison, but there isn't a right answer that the AI just doesn't know, that would magicially stop it. That's the point, really. It isn't meant to head fake anybody, just to be relentless.

If you want the general technique demonstrated against a human at your expense, I'd be happy to oblige. I'd prefer having greens against a human. But a battalion is going to run over a mixed 600 point force, that spends on an FO, guns, and fortifications and thus gets only a company of infantry. Pure infantry, even low quality pure infantry, attacks just fine. This is how. That is all.

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Though I did not read all of it,I would say that the piece written by JasonC more than accomplished the task of

...... and in particular to show relatively new players how to beat the AI with conscripts, without tanks, and while attacking rather than defending
Despite already knowing the information presented here,I am thankful that people like JasonC take the time to do stuff like this.With the free picture hosting at Imageshack I don't understand why more people don't do stuff like this.Whether it is in asking questions,or giving advice...... :shrug:

:mad:

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Another very useful post, thanks JasonC. I play with greens/conscripts a lot myself, and find them really fun:) I guess that the main problem I find, however, is the low turn number in many games. This is often unrealistic, and makes it excessively difficult to play a purely attritionist game. And what with conscripts' propensity to break from piffling amounts of fire power, it can turn into a nightmare.

Actually, I'm playing a PBEM right now on a map with a great big river on it. I'm attacking with Greens, and it's looking quite interesting. I'll post any particular lessons I've noticed...

So far I've found that:

Long range HMGs are a real problem in that they slows the advance - it's not particularly lethal, but it does slow down movement.

Rivers are diabolical; I'm having to rely on really heavy overwatch, with small periodic bounds of Move to Contact so I can flush out any infantry guys.

I totally screwed up with my artillery, it's out of LOS of where it needs to hit so is way off target:/

Crowding can be a big problem. Best tip there is to just keep your guys out of the combat zone.

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Thanks for that, JasonC.

Reminds me of the CMBB Demo battle Yelnia Stare (Sp?).

That's basically how I won the game vs. a human opponent. It wasn't fun for the the poor guy, but my Russian swarm eventually just rolled him over. I don't think I even moved one of my 4 (or was it 5) T-34's. Just used em' to pour suppressing fire.

Calmness is a key factor in this type of attack. (Don't be bothered by a routed platoon here or there - stick to the plan.)

smile.gif

Gpig

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Infantry attacks take time if properly delivered. You can rush instead, which takes less time, but unless you are much stronger than the enemy you hit, you run a serious risk of outright failure and your losses will be much higher.

I did the same scenario again, just using a big human wave from the start line. If I had tried to press that all the way home, it would have failed. Instead as soon as the men started to pin and sneak sideways, everybody pushed a turn and grabbed what cover they could, then fired back.

I was able to ram them far enough into the defense that they were all through the village and the craters just shy of it, intermingled with Germans in places, by the end of this push. Which took only about 6 minutes. Then I spent another 3-4 minutes rallying in whatever cover they could find and shooting the heck out of all the Germans from 100m ranges. Rushed the few not taken out by then, in minutes 10-12. My MMGs this time moved out at the word go, to up firing positions. They were stationary, well behind the wave, by the time the serious fight happened in the village - but not beforehand, so they didn't help "shoot them in".

I still smashed the defense, given very high manpower odds, 5 to 1 plus. But I lost as many as I took out, and more than twice as many as I did doing it the right way. Moreover, even that good a result required going to ground and firing back - it was fire that melted the defenders. The hard push just got men in among them. Didn't help deliver that fire, really, because half of them spent the critical period sideways sneaking in search of cover, instead of firing.

I do not recommend infantry rushes like that. I don't do them. They unnecessarily increase the risk of outright failure. They give the defense a chance to just plain beat the attack, that is what I really have most against them. I want "relentless". Not double losses racing an imaginary sense of urgency on some gamey timer. If I have the force to break the defense, I'll get through him. If I don't and he slows me, OK, he gets some flag points. But I'm not going to give him my force, too.

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GPig - Yelna is easy as pie for the Russians. They are hugely overpowered. The tanks alone can practically eat the German defense. And they have lots of support weapons for overwatch, and most of the men are green, not conscript. You can beat the AI-commanded German Yelna force if you drive the T-34s off the map on turn 1. With them, it is a cake walk, if you know what you are doing.

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Esentially what JasonC is showing here,is the exact same concept behind the Half-Squad Hordes--remember that debate?LOL.

The only difference is that it doesn't exploit a "flaw" in the game.

You used to could do the same thing in CMBO.If you have an attacking force,and are playing against the AI,you can simply have all your stuff just move from one end of the map to the other.They take losses,sure,but they also overwhelm the defenders with numbers and firepower.Doesn't always work,depends on terrain and such...

To stop what JasonC shows in this attack,the key is not to defend the village,or deny access to it,but instead to deny on the approach to the objective.Reach out and touch someone,don't wait for them to come to you,or to cross some line in the sand.At distance,the majority of your support weapons(when used properly)will be all but invisible.

Also,just like it is often easier to rout the enemy forces,it is easier to slow them down than to stop them,and virtually every scenario I have ever seen,only has so much time.

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Uh,yeah,I know.That is what I am saying.The only way you can stop an attack of the sort that you mention(100 men vs. a battalion)is to try and keep them away.

Otherwise,I miss the point entirely,and maybe you should do a article on *how to* stop a battalion worth of men with only a hundred.I atleast tell people something that might,and I say might,give them a chance.Instead of how to do something that,as you say,can't even be stopped to begin with.

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Well it can't. You can't make bricks without straw, and you can't stop a properly handled battalion with 100 men. Not at long range, not in close, not by firing early and often, not by dropping mortars during the approach march, not by using trenches, yada yada. An improperly handled battalion trying an all out rush can sometimes be stopped, or ragged out so badly that they lose as much as you do. But not a properly handled one. That is the whole point of handling one properly - to be relentless, no counter available, not a head fake, doesn't depend on what the other guy does or fails to do.

And what that proper way is, is news to some players. That is why this thread exists. Some players find all attacks hard, all use of infantry hard, and attacks by poor quality infantry nearly impossible. They have that impression because they aren't taking their time and using fire. They are instead trying to solve all their problems with different movements, which does not work. Or they get shot in the open and sideways sneak, and give up, keeping their men alive in their own trees, but not taking away those of the enemy.

They let a defender intimidate them. They let open ground intimidate them. They see all the places that might shoot at them. They rush to get everyone across the "hard parts". They crowd inside cover. They push men up too far because those in front of them have pinned, and they think they need to keep moving, that to stall is to fail. They don't have to do these things, and if they don't, then a defender outnumbered 5 to 1 is going down, period full stop.

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I know,I know.You can see earlier in the thread that I took the stance that you were doing this to help new players,and that I was thankful as well.It's just so damn much fun taking shot's at you,dude.I just can't help it.Right now I am involuntarily poking my monitor with my finger over your name in the hopes that I can somehow provoke you.I just can't help it :D

Besides,you love to debate all this crap and you know it! tongue.gif

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Well, for no-one's sake, I give a demonstration that it is easy to stop a battalion in the hands of the clueless AI, with a small force. The illustration shows some of the techniques of a nasty sort of defense, if you look carefully.

batt557vs1295pd.th.jpg

If you don't look carefully you will still see the #1 thing the AI does wrong - bunch up trying to take the "best" route, instead of spreading men over all the routes. (Probably because at bottom it is a pathfinder AI). Which means hyper vulnerability to big HE.

Incidentally, in this fight I lost 1 man and the AI lost 317. This is the sort of defense even a sound attack would find harder to deal with than the AI's defense in the original illustration. But it would still work, with right play by the attacker.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for the great post JasonC, as always.

Each map is labeled - I regret that jpg labeling is not as clear as gif labeling, and my image hosting solution does not take the full gifs. I can clarify the text if any of it is unreadable - and anyone cares.

I care! I've learned a lot from your previous "tutorials", and I'm looking forward to having a go at this one as well. If you still have the original readable pictures I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail them to me(jonbirkeland@hotmail.com).

JonB

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He Jason, I don't believe you should use infantry, except SMG, to rout and break other infantry. You need support weapons for that and they can do it much faster.

I did some testing in which I let 2 platoons fire on a single russians veteran squad in woods under a +1 morale HQ from 125m . Guess what? Ivan didnt break or rout, but ammo was going down quickly. Based on these tests and more I am getting more support weapons orientated. I use my infantry to scout and find the enemy infantry and then I let the support weapons, inf guns, t34's, onboard mortars to finish the job.

I frustrated a lot of opponents with veteran infantry with +1/+2 morale. They spend all lot of ammo and time to defeat those squads.

If I would attack with low experienced troops I would back them up with as much support weapons as possible. A conscript 75mm HE is a bad as an elite one.

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This is an excellent post. I find it most useful.

In the "real war" the Germans stopped numerous assaults like this when Russians were trapped in pockets, because they didn't follow the tactics that Jason outlines, which really involve depth of assault, proper use of overwatch fire, patience in the assault, and distribution of forces to avoid massive casualties if arty fire falls on the choke points.

The point I am taking away is the relative unimportance of cover vs. spreading out the attack and taking your time. I tend to get too focused on cover which causes my attacks to peter out.

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Yep, use all available cover even the seemingly minor bits like shellholes, wheat, and rocky patches, just to stay well spread. That is part of it. The biggest point is that outgoing fire provides most of the real protection, not cover. That outgoing fire comes from most of the formation being intact, which comes from overall patience and packet movement by the front edge. You aren't trying to race across a danger area as targets, you are trying to creep your firepower onto the enemy as shooters. He can't stand forever in front of sufficient firepower. You don't rush your way in or pile through two scraps of good cover, you "melt" your way in. Your firepower is the heat. Fire dominance takes ground, not movement.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been watching this thread. Way back, with the CMBB demo, I felt I had really accompished something by winning playing the Russian side of Yelnya Stare. It was a self-taught lesson in handling infantry in CM.

Jason, good job on the tutorial. Really well done to capture the point that conscripts should not be overlooked. With proper handling they can do the job. And don't mind the casualties and the disruption.

That said, I also post to self-promote. :eek: smile.gif I designed a CMBB operation a few months ago that some of you might be interested in. It is called "Bleeding and Mopping Up." I recently posted an "AI" version of it.

While it does not use only conscript infantry, conscripts make up a large percentage of the force for the Russians. I would say the average experience of the Russians is "green."

The storyline takes place in the summer of 1944 during the Russian offensive that destroyed the German Army Group Center. Historically, the Russians conscripted manpower from recently reconquered territory to fill their ranks. In the scenario, a replenished battalion-sized force goes up against an elite German force that is trapped in a pocket with no hope of escape. That is the "mopping up" part -- the "bleeding" comes from the term of gaining combat experience the hard way... essentially learning on the job while under fire.

Two versions -- H2H (head-to-head) and AI. I playtested the H2H version vs. two opponents and found it challenging for both the attacker (very much!) and defender. 5 battles, 20+ rounds each. For now, I have it only at The Proving Grounds. Would like to get outside feedback on the AI version before moving to SD but it should be good to go.

Another good scenario I played recently where you had to handle low experience Russians was "(FGM) Mekensievy-Gory." (not mine). I played this H2H and the end was down to the wire. Not enough conscripts though!!! ;) Many green and some "weakened." This one takes place outside of Sevastapol in the winter. Looks like it has not been posted to SD yet. Available at TPG (www.the-proving-grounds.com). A finished product in my opinion.

Another --

DEY-Panfilovec (in front of Moscow -- I have not played it but good remarks as a tough battle. At SD.)

Anyone else recommend some good conscript scenarios?

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