Flak gun performance

[Der Kuenstler]

In your experience, does flak gun performance against planes change when placed in different terrain or is it always the same?

[dieseltaylor]

Given how rare planes are!! I doubt any one has tested that : ) It would be interesting to know if they are firing at a distant ground target how quickly, or, if at all, they switch to planes.

I await the results : )

BTW I think terrain makes no difference

[Generaloberst Guderian]

Hmm, planes are somewhat sporadic, so that is hard to test. The only thing I can think of that may have an effect is the exposure of the AA gun, i.e. is it cover (trees, woods etc) or is it out in the open. In order to eliminate it as a threat, an aircraft must first naturally have to spot it, and if it is unable to the effectiveness of you AA defense is likely higher than it would be if all your AA guns were destroyed out of hand . Still, thats just deductive reasoning on my part -- I have no idea if the game actually works like that.

[GS_Guderian]

I didn´t experience any difference in the calibers nor in the position (hill, trees, wheatfield, open) considering the chance to bring something down.

Sometimes my 20mm Flak killed two, while my Flak-Vierling and 37mm Flak got none.

I do think there is a difference in the performance of Russian and German AA, so.

But of course this might be either the vulnerability of the different planes, the optics or the ammo of the different AA Guns involved. Anyways I feel it is easier to fend off Russian planes, then German bombers.

Often enough I got a kill on a Sturmovik before it even fired a single shot, while as the commander of Russian forces I wasn´t sure if the Henschels dropped down because of lack of fuel or because my AA hit.

These observations are totally random and subjective, though. As been said previuously, it is rather hard to do reliable tests.

As long as shooting at all is concerned...my guns always shoot. No matter where they sit. But naturally, I never place them in deep woods, so I don´t know about a possible perfomance loss here.

I do it, like it is done in (nowadays) procedures.

AA is first to pick, when it comes to choosing positions.

Generally I try to place them some spot they have LOS on advancing Inf, too.

[Der Kuenstler]

Well I'm inclined to want to put them at least in scattered trees so the planes can't spot them as good, but I don't know if their performance drops by doing that. I know that a mortar can sit in deep woods and fire up without a performance drop in the game but Flack is another question.

[stikkypixie]

IMO even if there is a performance drop, it won't be signficant (at least not in CM). The benifits of better concealement against ground forces probably outweighs any performance drop.

[imported_no_one]

Can a flak even target a plane out of deep cover?I would be disappointed if it could.That would have to simulate the cutting down of foliage and stuff,and to my knowldege other units can't do that.

I always have them on the edge of good cover.

[dieseltaylor]

Sorry if I was unclear when I said terrain probably made no difference I should have added the proviso - that you are not being silly.

That is you have not placed in the midst of a town square surrounded by two storey houses, in deep forest etc whereby you cut down the acquisition time on to target. Therefore high is good as long as it is out of line of fire of the enemy troops - but only worry if they are in range to ID. ; ). But if you are in light trees, rocky brush etc no problem. If you are restricting your arc so that you cannot cover the sky over the battlefield then that is silly.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

snip

If you are restricting your arc so that you cannot cover the sky over the battlefield then that is silly.

You know the flak disregards any cover arcs when shooting aircraft? Unless I misunderstood your statement.

[dieseltaylor]

I was talking of blocked lines of sight by buildings etc. Yes, talking of arcs is confusing the issue!! : )

[Generaloberst Guderian]

Even if they are meant to engage aircraft, don't forget to consider FLAK placement relative to ground targets. Even if you don't plan on engaging enemy infantry or armor, you definately don't want to get careless and lose valuable AA to a long distance HE round.

[Brent Pollock]

I tend to park them in the backfield, in open terrain or brush for two reasons:

1. I (like some of you) am betting that the game engine penalises LOF/LOS for being in tall cover like scatterred trees;

2. I want the planes to attack the AA, not my other ground troops. If they do that much, they've accomplished enough.

[JasonC]

AA guns engage nearly instantly from the middle of sizeable patches of tall pines. Doesn't seem to have any effect. They don't need wide LOS.

Another bit of trivia I found when I tested it just now - AA MGs don't do AA. The Russian 12.7mm HMG, for instance, which was historically an AA platoon weapon attached to higher HQs in small numbers, specifically as a low level AA defense weapon, doesn't engage planes that I've seen, and certainly not rapidly and reliably, like the 25mm AA. It is just a low ammo HMG for ground targets, MG crossed with ATR for 5 minutes rather than 10-15.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by JasonC:

AA guns engage nearly instantly from the middle of sizeable patches of tall pines. Doesn't seem to have any effect. They don't need wide LOS.

Another bit of trivia I found when I tested it just now - AA MGs don't do AA. The Russian 12.7mm HMG, for instance, which was historically an AA platoon weapon attached to higher HQs in small numbers, specifically as a low level AA defense weapon, doesn't engage planes that I've seen, and certainly not rapidly and reliably, like the 25mm AA. It is just a low ammo HMG for ground targets, MG crossed with ATR for 5 minutes rather than 10-15.

Neither does the .50 cal in CMAK, which surprised me. Possibly they had different mountings when in the AA role?

[MikeyD]

A small matter.

I've found that if you've got a couple of the bigger 37/40mm AA guns its best not to set them all up pointing in the same direction (all pointing straight east). That pretty much guarantees the plane will come in from behind (west) and drop its eggs on them before the guns can slew around.

The smaller guns (.50cal/20mm) are usually quick enough to swing 'round and acquire the target in time.

[imported_no_one]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

A small matter.

I've found that if you've got a couple of the bigger 37/40mm AA guns its best not to set them all up pointing in the same direction (all pointing straight east). That pretty much guarantees the plane will come in from behind (west) and drop its eggs on them before the guns can slew around.

The smaller guns (.50cal/20mm) are usually quick enough to swing 'round and acquire the target in time.

Good observation MikeyD.Regardless the size of the AA gun,I try and keep them in my rear area,and will typically have them along the edges of the map.If I am attcking to the north,I will have on AA to the SW,and one to the SE.I then have them turn so that they are almost looking at each other.The one to the west is looking east,etc.But I put a slight off angle on it.This way,regardless of size,there is often an AA assets that won't have to rotate very far to get fire on the plane.You will oftentimes also get an effect where one AA fires into the cockpit of the plane on its attack approach,and then the other one picks it up and fires into the planes rear as it flys away.Having the AA fire bothering the plane on its attack run is very beneficial.

[GS_Guderian]

well,

as soon as the first plane flew over the whole "trick" is for naught, aynway. I do that with mobile AA, since they shoot only backwards (at least it is said in the info text).

Of course you are right if the first attacker is a lonly plane. I am used to play high budget games though, and my rule is one plane is no plane. Same with AA, one gun can never be enough.

Thus there will be at least 3-5 planes in my games, rather 10-15 (Love those cheap Henschels).

[imported_no_one]

Hello.I play really large advance/assault operations PBEM.Never play the small ones.Most planes I have ever seen in any given battle was something like 2-3 of my planes flying around versus 2-3 of his planes.So maybe 4-6 total.In most cases just a couple total.I can see whay you are so diligent with your AA :eek:

What do you mean by the trick being for naught?Planes come at sporadic times,while I think the setup is the "trick",you would possibly have time to reset the AA assets to their original position.But again,the "trick" isn't actually a trick,it's just a good setup.If there were that many planes,I would hope to have more AA,and then I would add another layer to the AA depth,but otherwise,I think my setup would still accommodate more planes.

[Glider]

Originally posted by JasonC:

...

Another bit of trivia I found when I tested it just now - AA MGs don't do AA...

Strange, I recently played B&T Clash of Titans II against stikkypixie and I can clearly recall a veritable torrent of HMG AA fire coming from his halftracks and IS tanks. Perhaps he can confirm this.

[stikkypixie]

Yep, I think I shot it down, or at least chased it away.

[Glider]

I just ran a small test, IS-2 1943 and IS-2 1944 (early) do not have flexible 12.7mm HMGs and did not fire at German aircraft.

However, IS-2 1944 and IS-3 did.

[Glider]

On the other hand, after re-reading Jason's post, it seems to me that he is talking about 12.7mm HMG teams, not about tank HMGs. Sorry

[GS_Guderian]

Originally posted by no_one:

But again,the "trick" isn't actually a trick,it's just a good setup.

Never questioned it is. I even said I do the same. But 2-3 planes in one turn are still enough circumvent this setup, and sometimes new planes appear before the turn ended. Thus you had no time to re-adjust them. No big deal, cheer up.

[imported_no_one]

I'm always cheery :mad: ..er um,I mean

[MikeyD]

Reading the header "Flak gun performance", I thought this was going to be about the dismal direct fire accuracy of the German 88 Flak.

I've seen the 'dreaded' 88 Flak miss shots that a Russian short-barreled Model 1937 76.2mm howiter could make! Grrrrr! But I guess that's for aother "Flak gun performance" discussion.