Do dead armored vehicles give cover and/or concealment?

[Tigrii]

I know that burning tanks block LOS, but do vehicles, dead or otherwise, stop small-arms. So if an infantry squad is behind a tank and a MG shoots at it, does the tank stop the bullets? What about HE shells? Canister?

[Dschugaschwili]

A dead vehicle offers nothing. If it burns, the smoke offers some concealment, but that's all.

Dschugaschwili

[Schrullenhaft]

This is called 'dynamic LOS'. Unfortunately it isn't part of CM since it would increase the mathematical calculations significantly. You'll also notice that pillboxes don't block LOS either since they're coded up similar to vehicles in the game.

Maybe with the next engine Dynamic LOS will make it in, but that may be asking a bit too much at this point.

[Bruno Weiss]

Now they ain't supposed to, and infact you can trace a LOS through wrecks. (This goes back to CMBO). All has to do with as was stated dynamic LOS calculations by the CPU, which as was stated long ago I think by Charles, you'd need a Cray to accurately do that, or some such.

BUT, remembering back to the first discussion/debate that took place over this with CMBO, and incidents on the field that have happened since. Once in a while, an infantry type hidden underneath a wreck, or behind it and peeking around the corner, (in my experiences), does indeed receive some sort of benefit. To what degree exactly I cannot say. But, I have seen instances of units hidden under wrecks that the enemy units have a very difficult time of seeing, and I've seen units firing around the corner of a wreck where small arms incoming fire is deflected by the wreck.

Now, there are a bunch of folks who deny that with vigor, and they have the word of BTS on their side. But, I've seen with me own eyes those incidents happen. Just one ole soldiers viewpoint.

[ January 09, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[B.B.Toys]

________ Once in a while, an infantry type hidden underneath a wreck, or behind it and peeking around the corner, (in my experiences), does indeed receive some sort of benefit. To what degree exactly I cannot say. But, I have seen instances of units hidden under wrecks that the enemy units have a very difficult time of seeing, and I've seen units firing around the corner of a wreck where small arms incoming fire is deflected by the wreck.

_________________________________

Were these instances during an AI or human opponent game? A human opponent can conceivably not see (graphically) such hidden units especially if in enlargement mode wheresa the AI should have no problems.

Best, Richard

[Hat Trick]

From Schrullenhoft

This is called 'dynamic LOS'. Unfortunately it isn't part of CM since it would increase the mathematical calculations significantly.

Presumably a stationary wreck or abandoned vehicle would not pose this problem. While the current engine treats vehicles differently from other terran objects (as I understand it), changes in line of sight due to smoke and destroyed buildings during the game demonstrate that, in theory, the engine should be able to handle blocking line of sight due to a vehicle that is no longer moving. Perhaps this can be incorporated into the next engine, even if the effect moving vehicles cannot.

[Bruno Weiss]

It was against humans. But I would say in many cases with fire directed by the AI. In the case of firing from behind and around the corner of a wreck, those were situations where incoming fire was being directed at the unit behind the wreck, but was deflected off the wreck instead.

Hat Trick wrote:

Perhaps this can be incorporated into the next engine, even if the effect moving vehicles cannot.

Not unless Charles has changed his mind about it since way back when. As to whether or not it is a significant rewrite, or can be done over coffee you'd have to take up with him. I only remember what was said. Which was "no". Don't know about the big engine rewrite however, don't think they've said anything on this for a while.

[ January 09, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[momishuli]

During a battle against the AI, one of my T-70s reversed (TacAI handling it all) and tried to hide behind a previously knocked-out (not burning) T-70 to escape fire from a Tiger. It didn't help; Tiger's shells went right through the dead tank and knocked- out my T-70. Yet, I still can not figure out why the TacAI chose to hide behind a dead tank. (I also noticed that dead vehicles don't block movement either.)

Note: There was no trees or buildings nearby.

[Gutshot]

Come to think of it,the lack of cover from being behind vehicles is quite a downer! In old war footage we often see infantry advancing close behind their moving armour for cover and what a cool sight that would be in Cmbb.

[Bruno Weiss]

BTS swears wrecks do not provide anything in regards to blocking LOS, and the vast majority of the time they do not. But I've seen vehicles push wrecks out of the way, and I've seen infantry hiding behind the corners of wrecks or underneath wrecks receive something. What that something is, I really do not know. Why would a vehicle push a wreck out of the way if the AI did not recognize it as an object? The AI also seems to be thrown off a little bit by infantry types hiding underneath wrecks where it seems to have a more difficult time identifying or targeting them, and while LOS is not blocked, never the less it appears at times the AI indeed has a tougher time hitting an infantry type hiding behind the corners of a wreck, as the incoming bullets bounce off the wreck (meaning they ain't going through it to the target or beyond), to do damage.

So, the party line is no wrecks don't help ya hide, but personally if the necessary or right occasion arises I use them just as if they did and benefit from it just as explained.

[ January 26, 2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]