Dug-in AA guns...

[Der Kuenstler]

I'm playing a scenario now where I am attacking a Russian airfield that is surrounded by AA guns. Each gun is dug in and surrounded by it's own stone wall. I'm hitting them with everything - 75 mm HE, 81 mm mortars, 50 mm mortars, Heavy MGs, Heavy AT rifles, etc. The dang things are practically unkillable. When the gun crews duck they show "0% visibility." I don't have enough smoke to rush them with infantry - they are too far out in the open and covered by infantry in the buildings behind them. I'll be out of HE soon. Why are they so hard to kill?

[SteveS]

Had a not too dissimilar experience in CMAK recently attacking a single Italian 75mm AA gun. This was just sitting in a wheat field. It received about fifteen 2" mortar rounds and two 3" mortar rounds (from an FO) right on the button (not counting numerous others distributed a few metres away). This was coupled with fire from between 3 to 6 rifle squads on any one turn (distances around 150m). The thing lasted for almost 15 turns and was pretty much actively returning fire for a good fraction of every turn. The fraction of pinned time seemed ridiculously low, even accepting the weakness of 2" mortars in general and the variance in the game.

[John Kettler]

Der Kuenstler,

You're fighting what amount to a series of infantry supported hardened point targets. Dug-in guns can be difficult to deal with all by themselves, but yours are also well protected against direct fire by the walls. It would appear, then, that you have to accurately drop

a shell or mortar bomb into the emplacement, best done with on board mortar fire, presumably, the 50 mm mortars for you (fired in pairs if possible because of weak terminal effects) and/or first suppress the occupants, so they can't shoot, then shatter them with direct HE fire, if you have any.

You don't mention sharpshooters, but if you have some, they can be a big help by popping otherwise well protected guncrews when up, inflicting significant morale damage as well as causing casualties.

I don't know what you have left by way of time or combat resources, but if possible, concentrate fire on one gunpit, while masking the fire of those positions nearby which can support it. Your FO controlled support, which may be a 75mm FO and an 81mm mortar FO, is practically useless against the gunpits, but may, depending upon the nature and condition of the buildings, be able to seriously hurt the foe's infantry support. At the very least, smoke should be able to tone it down somewhat. Whatever's attacking either a gunpit or a building should fire from divergent axes, because troops are very sensitive about where fire is coming from relative to their front and seek to orient upon it. Toing and froing results when it's coming in from several directions at once, and a unit toing and froing can't fight effectively, especially a cannon which must traverse in order to engage. This is how units die. The secret is not in the raw firepower applied, but in creating a situation which to the greatest degree possible, negates cover and hurts morale. Once you've killed a gunpit, find a way to leapfrog troops into it, so it becomes a wedge into the defenses and an additional base of fire.

You may or may not be able to win the scenario with what you have left, but you should have a better idea how to go about it should you need to replay this one. In any event, I highly recommend you order a download of the CMBB Strategy Guide.

It'll give you a much better handle on the game.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Corvidae]

I've seen that,, Play a mission once and that gun is unkillable and unpinnable,

Play it again and the same gun is pinned in turn 1, and abandoned by turn 3

A gun with a HQ unit with high moral (heart) and combat (lightning) ratings, can be very tough indeed,

I once had a 37 PAK defend a crossroads to the last shell, and then they started using small arms, They were down to 2 crew and a section HQ, and were facing T34s and infantry, they stood for 24 turns,

Afterwards I looked at the map, There were 9 50mm mortars 4 tanks, and 3 maxim guns still attacking them, plus a company of guards infantry,

They killed 6 tanks and caused over 40 infantry casualties, forced 2 mortar crews to abandon, and pinned 2 maxims.

[SteveS]

In the long term such things give the game its charm, even if you want to spit rivets when you are at the wrong end of it. Thanks to the variance hero's can occasionally make a difference on the battlefield

[Kingfish]

Just a gut feeling on my part, but I believe dug-in guns break easier if they aren't actively engaging any enemy units. I've noticed in hotseat games when guns take incoming mortar fire their morale begins to drop, but the moment an enemy unit comes into view the gun crew quickly rallys, raising their morale to pre-bombardment levels.

[SteveS]

Interesting. Now that you mention it it seems to ring true of other cases of gun longetivity I have encountered. In my CMAK case for example the gun had visible targets every round. Certainly worth testing.

[Kingfish]

It seems to me that the sight of a potential target overrides the gun crew's present morale state, even if the amount of incoming fire does not slacken off in the least. This I observed in several hotseat games, when green Italian flak guns are pinned by multiple Vickers teams commanded by +2 Combat HQs, yet suddenly go Audie Murphy at the sight of a Uni carrier 1000 meters away.

[Der Kuenstler]

I'm on the other side with an entrenched and walled-in 40 mm AA gun in another scenario - it's being fired on with HE from 3-4 German tigers - at least 4 minutes worth of fire so far. This gun is out of command, too. Result? My crew is "broken" but not one crew member has died yet and the gun has not been abandoned! (Mental note for defense: entrenched AA)

[John Kettler]

Der Kuenstler,

The kind of direct HE fire your gun is under is exactly what I was talking about--and then some. Even if it doesn't kill the gun, it wreaks havoc on morale, and if the crew bolts, the gun's as good as dead, since there are no recrewing provisions in the game. The good news for you is that the Tigers' target is even smaller than yours was, so even out of command, your men have a chance--provided the Tigers change targets or you can get an HQ into command radius! That guncrew is one step shy of routing, you see. Do you have anything which can distract or blind the Tigers? If so, use it!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Other Means]

Have you area fired as close to the guys as you can? Don't target them directly as they duck - get 0 exposure and everyone stops firing.

Then they stand up when they've had a refreshing cower and are ready to fight again.

If you area fire next to them then you force them past supressed into broken and then they abandon the weapon.

If you're already doing this, forget I said it.

[Thin Red Line]

My crew is "broken" but not one crew member has died yet and the gun has not been abandoned! (Mental note for defense: entrenched AA) [/QB]

Same happened to one of my 76mm captured gun in a scenario.

Crew was morale state was broken due to HE fire in the trench, but they did not abandon the gun and started to fight back when their morale came up again.

This is the first time i witness this in CM.

[crab]

I've found that if the gun isn't KO'ed the crew usually only abandons the gun if they are routed.

[Joachim]

Regarding the first post:

Pinned/hidden units behidn walls have 0% exposure. It is really hard to place a shell close to their trench/foxhole when high velocity rounds hit the wall and low velocity rounds have a high scatter which is also true for mortars. When entrenched, you sometimes need a really close hit with a decent bang. Mortars often don't deliver the bang, 75L43 or longer is too fast. An lIG might have a better chance to hit.

What you can try is area fire with a small armor covered arc (blue). If the gun is not considered a huge threat the tank will keep the area target and not lose it once the prone crew drops out of LOS. Sometimes a round will find its way thru the wall. Needs more HE per turn but it might push the crews beyond routed.

There is a CMAK scen with tanks vs dug-in 25pdrs behind sandbags. A really tough one. Lots of people got slaughtered there as Axis attacker. So you are not alone.

IIRC my tactic was smoke, dust and concentrating 75mm fire from PzIV shorts on 1 or 2 guns to destroy them while using the PzIII longs to just pin other guns. I advanced with bounded overwatch and had to overrun some pinned guns as I run out of HE.

You can often easily pin them, but to destroy them you need to accumulate lots of suppression in a short time so they can't recover. OTOH if they go fanatic you have no other chance than a direct hit.

Gruß

Joachim

[JasonC]

Mortars fire HE to pin them. Once they are pinned, it is a waste to keep firing every turn, and will just run you out of ammo. Instead, put 1-2 MGs on them, area fire if they duck.

They will pop back up occasionally but take fire when they do. Put a mortar back on them if they are still up at the end of a turn. In CMAK, artillery dust also helps. Tanks can use covered arcs over all of them, without a designated target. They will fire at whichever go heads up that way.

It always helps to just avoid their LOS too, especially after pinning them. Exploit their immobility. In flat table-top, wide LOS cases you can hide behind vehicle-created dust screens, isolate on one at a time that way, etc.