GreenAsJade Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 In couple of recent long, slightly winding threads, the question of "if you have a covered arc, does it increase the chance of your units opening fire" was discussed. Other side questions came up as well, and I was left unsure enough of the answers to feel like trying it out. I marched infantry, halftracks & tanks in turn back and forth across an opening in some trees through which tanks, infantry & ATGs were looking. I tried different settings of "hide" and "covered arc" for the lookers. Here is what I found: </font>If the onlookers are hiding, with no covered arc they will not open fire unless they are fired upon or unless something walks right on top of them.</font>If the onlookers are _not_ hiding, they will open fire on anything that they see moving, as long as they have a reasonable chance of hurting it.</font>If the onlookers are hiding and have a covered arc, they will open fire on something that walks into the covered arc, wheras before they would not have.</font>A "cover armour" arc will not cause an AFV to open fire on a halftrack that has no gun that could hurt it (this was described in a recent thread, and completely suprised me!)</font> Finally, I did a slightly different test: I had a platoon in some pines, not hiding, and watching one of their squads advance across the open to another patch of pines 100m away. In that pines was an enemy squad hiding, about 15m back from the edge, so the other guys could just see them once they spotted them. Without covered arcs, the bastards back in the forest watched their buddies get slaughtered as they entered the opposite forest. Hey, we're comfy here, and now we know there are bad guys over there. heh heh. With covered arcs covering the forest into which the hapless scouts were advancing, the scout buddies in the forest opened fire on the baddies as soon as the baddies opened fire on the scout. Moral of the story: use covered arcs if you want to be shooting. I can send anyone the test map if you want to prove it for yourself (though it was about a 10 minute job). GaJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Thanks!! Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColumbusOHGamer Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 That was a good test and a VERY clear, informative review. Thanks for doing that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hooray! GaJ, collaborate with me to provide useful screenshots? I have good gfx editing software which I can use and bandwidth + webspace. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 GreenAsJade i think i love you. this confirms what i've observed but never actually tested. thanks. [edited to add] not my love, for that needs no test and is plain to see. [ June 26, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Other Means ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Thanks, great test! Qs follow: Originally posted by GreenAsJade: [snipped] A "cover armour" arc will not cause an AFV to open fire on a halftrack that has no gun that could hurt it (this was described in a recent thread, and completely suprised me!) [snip] Finally, I did a slightly different test: I had a platoon in some pines, not hiding, and watching one of their squads advance across the open to another patch of pines 100m away. In that pines was an enemy squad hiding, about 15m back from the edge, so the other guys could just see them once they spotted them. Without covered arcs, the bastards back in the forest watched their buddies get slaughtered as they entered the opposite forest. With covered arcs covering the forest into which the hapless scouts were advancing, the scout buddies in the forest opened fire on the baddies as soon as the baddies opened fire on the scout.So, if you can, please clarify: did the tanks using CA open up on haltracks that can hurt them, like the 75mm halftracks or the flametracks? IOW, is it a matter of whether the ambushed vehicles can hurt the overwatch AFV, or just that halftracks are not "Armor?" In the second case, are you sure the overwatch platoon had LOS to the enemy? The woods they are hidden in themselves reduce their own LOS considerably...I can see where the scout might have LOS to the enemy but the firebase would not. Thanks for the effort, it is already quite helpful...if your test didn't look at these additional things don't worry about it, I'll go on learning the hard (but fun!) way! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I can confirm that in at least the specific case of SPW 251/1s (MG only) in LOS of a T-34 with armor arc, the T-34 will NOT fire. Next turn, I cancelled the arc (and checked LOS - good) and it immediately opened fire. I don't know what the limit is; I'm guessing anything bigger than an MG will trigger an armor arc. If that's correct, I don't know which side of the line an SPW 251/21 falls on - I may have to check that after watching one dish out some NASTY drive-by shootings in a recent game. You DON'T want those guys running around freely, trust me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I created a map for the purpose of delving into the covered arc behaviour as well. I began with infantry and my findings support those of GAJ's. All units in the test are regular experience, FOW is set to extreme. We start off with a small village in the Kalmuk Steppe. A convoy of vehicles is parked on the road to the west, and a platoon of Panzer Grenadiers with 2 x HMG42s to cover them are capering around. Two Tank Hunter teams are the sacrificial lambs. All the cover arcs and approximate ranges to the target area are included in the photo realistic sceenshot I offer you. The German platoon is unhidden. One PzGr squad is covering the village for some reason. [ June 26, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 The Tank Hunters are toast, but at least the support with covered arc reacts, as well as the vehicle MG's on the road which open fire with glee. The delay times are scary. Delay of one second in this case means that the enemy is targeted and the first ammo expenditure takes places one second after the enemy infantry was (borg)spotted. [ June 26, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 In the next picture we will tackle the village. Mayhap the NKVD facility is abandoned and our German heroes will have a chance to explore the prison cells and a torture chamber located in the cellar? A TH team will move into the houses, a PzGr squad is approx 100 meters from the village proper in some brushes, while the rest of the platoon is still amidst the scattered trees where few covered arcs towards the village are given. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 A Soviet infantry squad pushes rifle muzzles out of a window and cuts down the TH team. The reactions from the "firebase" (very loosely) can be seen in the screenshot. The PzGr squad 200 meters away lets off only a few shots and stops shooting, a solid ID was not made. Though I'm not sure if that matters, it seems a range of 200 meters is considered too far by the TacAI. At 100 meters I didn't need a covered arc; the PzGr squad in the bush lets loose instantly anyway. [ June 26, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Next round I removed the covered arc from the second HMG42 previously targeting the woods to the SE. The riflemen 200 meters away are largely disinterested about the whole firefight and eat corned beef. The squad covering the village only shoot once or so a round, with the exception of a flurry of shots at a routed unit not seen here; when a Soviet squad broke out of the buildings and was identified by the PzGr squad in the bush the PzGr squad with covered arc shot at the squad untill it ran behind the walls of the NKVD compound and took cover, becoming more or less invisible. The HMG42 with a covered arc performed quite well, spraying bullets at Soviet targets almost constantly. Next I was going to do something with armor... [ June 26, 2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I ran a series of tests with three Soviet T34s covering an area 650 - 800 meters away with various vehicles passing through. A HT 251/1 sparks no interest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Flamer halftrack, targeted immediately by the 45mm ATG and Ser Shtalenkov. Ser Tyagachev in the middle takes his time but targets the 251/16 in 3 to 10 seconds. Naturally the Soviets are unable to hit the vehicle as it speeds from cover to cover with "fast" as they are unable to get a single shot off. [ June 26, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Next, a truck towing a 50mm PaK. At first I would have thought this is an interesting target but apparently not as the gun has not been set up. [ June 26, 2003, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 So why not unlimber the gun and see what happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 The gun is unlimbered, sets up, turns around and starts plinking away at Tyagachev's T34. KO after a brief exchange. The situation was simulated a few times and each time the Tyagachev takes out the PaK after he gets targeted by it, otherwise the PaK crew can haul the gun over the steppe as much as they feel life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Another great post, Ligur! Fun and informative! BFC, why don't you get this guy busy on a CMAK tutorial and/or Strat Guide, now! I'll pre-order! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Below an example of how being buttoned up increases reaction time, a covered arc didn't improve reaction time in this situation at all: when unbuttoned both tanks opened fire almost simultaneously several times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Finally our platoon leader Akhmanov has to release his vice-like grip from the bottle of Stolichnaya and engage the enemy. Tested several times, at least from 600m + ranges the covered arc in the wrong direction proved fatal as two PZIVG's were able to drive within LOS and get off at least one "free" shot. By the time Akhmanov has his barrel pointing the right direction two PZIVG's have him ranged and going medieval on his, umm, rear, with 740m/sec muzzle velocity APCBC. [ June 27, 2003, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Wonderfull post Ligur ... marvelous! I particulary like your visualizations, the work of a true craftsman. The attention to detail is just the very tasty icing on the cake (waitng with taking screen shots until the SPW gunner looks straight at the post viewer) ... I am impressed. And all this is done in about 3,5 hours. I can only second that you be used to beef up the manual and guides for CMX2. Thank you for taking the time and sharing with the community. The ARC functionality is now proven to work the way Charles explained when CMBB was new on the block. CMBB Grogs will for sure know the basics of this already (they must because even I did!), but there are some fine points in your test that must be educational for even them, like the reaction timing and AT Gun free streak. And for sure all this must be it's weight woth in gold to all the new CMBB players out there. Ligur ... my hat goes off for you... Thank you Frans [ June 26, 2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: HawkerT ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgars Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Spotted one mistake in your test, Ligur. It's "Stolichnaya" not "Stolishnaya". Great post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86smopuim Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Ligur for president! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Question. The manual specifically states that trucks and the like are not considered armoured vehicles for the purpose of covered arcs. The AI would therefore ignore the truck in a cover armour arc. Did you manage to test the fate of the truck and Pak in a straightforward cover arc situation? Apart from that query really excellent work and the effort is appreciated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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