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Tanks without support vs AT-guns in open terrain


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Hi all

I have CMBO & CMAK, but unfortunately don’t have time to play it as much as I would like. Have played for some years, but this is my first entry to the forum, and hope this is in the right forum.

I have played the scenario ! A series of Misfortunes, which is part of the package of scenarios which were created to go along with the CMAK Companion book.

My question is fairly simple: How do you advance tanks towards AT-guns over completely open terrain without any form of support?

A more detailed introduction of this specific scenario follows, but this question must also be applicable in e.g. CMBB scenarios (which is why I have posted it here and not under CMAK).

**** Spoiler alert****

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In said scenario, (as german) you only have tanks (think there are two versions of Pz IV) with absolutely NO support. Some of the tanks do have smoke though. The objective is to seize the top middle of the map, which is protected by a number (7 or8) of british AT-guns. You start behind a small ridge, but after that the map is nearly completely flat up to the british guns. I have tried this scenario quite a few times now, each try ending in a near complete annihilation of my tank force. I have tried a rush up the right hand side to the small depression in the top right corner (where ‘only’ two AT-guns can shoot me). Despite having other tanks behind the ridge trying to keep the guns suppressed, only1 off the 4-6 tanks I sent out made it to the depression. I have also tried a more simple shoot-out with the guns, but as there are so many of them and they are in improved positions (behind sandbags), it is difficult to even suppress them, and nearly impossible to knock them out. As I said earlier – the tanks have a bit of smoke. but it only lasts about one turn which isn’t even enough to rush up to the other end of the map. The problem is also that there are so many guns and over such a large area, that it is difficult to make an efficient smoke-screen to cover any advance.

I had hoped to insert a picture here of the setup, but dont know how to - does it really need to be out on the net somewhere (says you need URL).

*** Spoiler end****

I hope some of you can help, as I have otherwise completely given up on this scenario (one possibility of course is, that –although realistic- this is simply a scenario which proves that it is impossible to attack AT-guns without support).

Thanks

shaun

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I believe you have some motars in this game, in which case assign those to destroy the closests guns and use your tanks in a group to fire at one gun from long distance. Once you have killed one side of the gun defense move your tanks through the gap. Also use your infantry to storm the guns. This was a costly scenario, I think I won the game with one tank left and it had gun damage. I just used it to hose down the enemy infanty and do overrun attacks on them.

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I haven't played this particular scenario, but I've played similar, in CMAK, as well as CMBB and CMBO. It sounds like this scenario is very similar to The Citadel, one of the CMBB demo scenarios, though the opposing forces are a bit more varied in Citadel, much of the battle is still at Tank-Only vs. a mostly AT Gun defense.

If you have tanks and only tanks, and are facing a PaK-Front, you need to fall back on basic Fire and Maneuver drill.

Briefly, Fire and Maneuver drill involves dividing your tanks up into two groups: Overwatch and Maneuver elements.

The Overwatch group are your shooters. They take up good shooting positions, usually on a ridgeline or similar terrain feature at as long a range as possible. Ideally, the Overwatch position(s) can see (and fire on) likely enemy positions. Note that the Overwatch group doesn't necessarily sit out exposed for enemy to target freely. Sometimes, depending on tactical situation, they hide in defilade, and pop up once enemy targets are revealed (including sometimes using tophat & lowsky or similar shoot and scoot movement drills).

Manuver Group moves forward ("bounds") under the cover of the Overwatch group. Maneuver bounds should generally begin and end in safe, defilade locations.

The goal is to he enemy will be forced into taking low % shots at fast-moving targets, and your massive overwatch firepower will overwhelm the AT guns as they open fire.

Lather, rise, repeat.

This is a VERY basic summary of armored Fire and Maneuver drill. There are endless variations. For example, Overwatch and Maneuver element are not necessarily the same size, nor are they necessarily of the same composition. Sometimes, groups alternate, taking turns between the two roles, sometimes they don't. It all depends on details of terrain, equipment, etc.

Searches of the forums will turn up a lot of good reading, I'm sure. The whole idea is that AT guns are overwhelmed by massive return fire as soon as they reveal themselves. At worst, and AT Gun gets one tank before it's KOed by overwatch return fire, but only one. Hopefully, with a bit of luck, you manage to get at least some of the guns before they score a kill.

Cheers,

YD

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This scenario helped create my disdain for the desert part of CMAK. It is NOT Fun.

If you give the AI no bonuses, you can FAST move most of your armor to low areas and then slowly move to volley fire on one gun at a time.

With any AI bonuses, my tanks got wiped out before they could get to cover.

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Thanks for the replies. I have tried the fire and maneuver drill, without success.

hhmmm, guess it simply is a pretty difficult (impossible) scenario, and one where you simply need a lot of luck to succed.

Have tried the scenario quite a few times now, and might just have to move on and admit defeat (however tough that might be).

shaun

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If that is the scen I think it is there is a thread on it somewhere. Just search for its name.

I won using a combo of very small covered arcs (to stop tanks switching targets) and area fire to suppress the suspected gun positions. PzIVs have smoke - use it to cover your flank, then concentrate lots of tanks on few targets.

Fire from several tanks will pin a gun crew. A single tank might be enough to keep them pinned. MG fire on a fully identified gun at point blank will surely rout it.

Lots of dust can work as smoke screen, too. This way you keep the covered flank.

If you move, move fast or hunt. And never ever drive into rocky terrain - it will slow you too much.

Gruß

Joachim

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