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Today I had a German tank hunter team, regular experience, rested, not in command, hiding at the edge of some summer woods at night. They had a 40m armor cover arc set to trip when a tank came by presenting its side or rear to the team.

Next turn two T-34s and a Stuart drove up together and tripped the arc, all within 10-20 meters, presenting their sides and unaware of my team. My team raised up to attack and, before they could even blink, all three vehicles instantly spotted them and sprayed them with machine gun fire, panicked, and killed them.

How could I have set a better trap? If I had been far enough back in the woods to prevent the tanks spotting me, I couldn't have seen them, or they may not have passed close enough to the woods to trip the arc.

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Teh B0rg has U!

Seriously, I think you might have been a bit unlucky to not get at least one shot off. But in a situation like that you would be spotted very quickly anyway, especially if the tanks were not buttoned (which will make a huge difference in their spotting ability).

Setting up further back in the woods would help to decrease the spotting chance, but at such close range three unbuttoned tanks would still spot you very quickly.

IMHO the best you can do in a situation like that is to:

a) make sure the tanks are buttoned (use long distance MG-fire or a sniper for that)

B) retreat if the opposition is too great, or hold fire until some of the tanks have driven past your men, so you can focus on only one tank.

c) Cross your fingers. Despite their name "Tank Hunters" are by no means a sure tank-killer even at point blank range. This is even more true agains medium tanks like the T34 (the heavier the harder to K.O.)

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yeah, what Loeffe said,

plus:

in the world of CMBB, it makes a huge difference if the TH team is under HQ control or not.

under certain conditions such as yours, a regular TH team might get spotted if it is out of command, while it might have a better chance to stay concealed longer (until it fires) under HQ command.

by comparison, a green TH team will get spotted under the same circumstances even if it *has* decent HQ connections.

In my experiences, HQ units themselves make better tank hunter teams anyhow.

(edited for poor wording)

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smile.gif Well, welcome back then smile.gif

I image that if I were the tank hunter team in real life I wouldn't dare to show myself if 2(!) tanks and a stuart showed up within less than 50 meters from my position, without them being pre-occupied with incoming fire from other units.

It's a sure way to kill myself and my team.

Like Loeffe said, create a more comprehensive diversion before letting the tank hunter team go in for the kill(s).

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Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rollstoy:

I am going to put a candle in the window tonight:

Herr Hofbauer has posted after over a year of absence!!!

Now I have hope again ...

Best regards,

Thomm

hehe, save your candles for the blizzards - I'm just passing by to check and see. ;) </font>
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You were playing against the AI,correct?Two things:

1)The AI has spotting abilities that are unmatched by even humans,and I am not referring to borg spotting.It also seems to be worse at night.I have seen the exact same thing you have,except that most of my units WERE in command.IIRC,they were also highly experienced,nevertheless,they were spotted often,and easily.There weren't even that many AI units in LOS.

2)The russians,especially when controlled by the AI,have a tremendous spotting advantage,even when buttoned.I routinely see the AI spot things that wouldn't/couldn't be spotted by a human opponent.I have had veteran HMG's,in command with pluses to stealth,etc,be spotted at ranges that they shouldn't be spotted.

All this is speculation.You all can,and probably will,dismiss this.I however,am not stupid,and I have watched the play of the AI change over time.I think the AI's better spotting abilities arose about the same time as a patch was supposed to make it so that TC's would stay buttoned up for an entire turn.IIRC,I remember there being some discussion about the AI armor staying buttoned up,and would die too easily.Again,IIRC,I remember MadMatt saying something like "We think we have found something that will make it work better".Ever since,buttoned up AI armor spots much better.

You can all scoff now.

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Originally posted by Der Kuenstler:

Today I had a German tank hunter team, regular experience, rested, not in command, hiding at the edge of some summer woods at night. They had a 40m armor cover arc set to trip when a tank came by presenting its side or rear to the team.

Next turn two T-34s and a Stuart drove up together and tripped the arc, all within 10-20 meters, presenting their sides and unaware of my team. My team raised up to attack and, before they could even blink, all three vehicles instantly spotted them and sprayed them with machine gun fire, panicked, and killed them.

How could I have set a better trap? If I had been far enough back in the woods to prevent the tanks spotting me, I couldn't have seen them, or they may not have passed close enough to the woods to trip the arc.

Oh dear. So many things. If this is a pbem turn email it to me and there may be a lot more to say.

First off, what AT weapon was your Tank Hunter armed with besides grenades?

-You shouldn't give 40m arcs for most standard AT weapons. The technical distance is 39.5 meters. I'd aim for the low side of 39, or 38 just to be safe. No reason to have your tank hunter reveal his position unless he's prepared to kill and kill fast.

-some tanks spot better than others but one thing you should try to avoid is opening up on them when your tank hunter is directly in front of the tank. The spotting delay is multiplied dramatically when you're attacking from the sides and especially the back.

-the real trick with tank hunters is trying to get them to attack when the enemy tank(s) are already buttoned up. Typically when your armor cover arc is tripped, if the enemy tank is unbuttoned, you'll start firing small arms first, giving away your position. Unless you're lucky enough to kill the tank commander and stun the tank, your odds of success just went down dramatically.

-The idea is to prepare for the tank hunter assault, if you can be certain when you'll have your chance, by firing at the tanks with other things to get them to button up at the beginning of the turn. Use anything and everything you can to get those hatches closed! This makes a huge difference. You'll see.

The only problem with all of this is that against an experienced opponent it becomes nearly impossible to prepare things like this, because the armor movements are dished out so that you're never parked in a dangerous spot from one turn to the next.

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What I do is to set the arc so that they wont fire on the tanks themselves.

Most times the tanks will pass the TH team and you can order them yourself to shoot at the rear of the passing tank.

That gives you a chance to kill at least one of them.

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Also, consider when the enemy comes into your arc, and your LOS. If possible position the team so that the enemy tank won't come into LOS until it is already close enough to be targeted. In a 1941 QB I was playing, I had good success using this tactic, and destroyed 2 T-34/1941s using Panzerwurfmine (which seem to be a pretty much garaunteed kill).

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Originally posted by Generaloberst Guderian:

In a 1941 QB I was playing, I had good success using this tactic, and destroyed 2 T-34/1941s using Panzerwurfmine (which seem to be a pretty much garaunteed kill).

Another Wurfmine fan! Yes Generaloberst, the Panzerwurfmine is accurate & quite effective. I'd consider it the best available tank hunter weapon, i prefer it even to a Panzerfaust 100 (Throwing this thing won't pin you when inside a building)
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I dunno, the Panzerfaust 100m is a tough one to counter if you're facing them in large enough quantities. While I've always had good results with them, it seems that sqauds fire them in excess, often times hitting an enemy 4-5 times from 3 different directions. Naturally any enemy facing such an onslaught is immediately destroyed. The problem though, is that there are no more Panzerfausts left for, well...the rest of the Red Army, and often times what I thought was going to be a great compliment to my AT defense turns into a "one hit wonder".

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Originally posted by throwdjohn:

what are the effective ranges of wurfmines and rpgs? fausts are easy, the number is the range, shrecks too. but i don't know much about the wurfmine so i can't guesstimate what the range is. i mean suggested range too, not maximum.

Effective range and max range are synonymus for rpgs and wurmfminnen(sp) and magnetic mines. 39.5 meters, exactly.

Grenade range is also 39.5 meters, but they increase in accuracy and ROF the closer you are to the intended target.

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In reality, the 'fausts were said to be very accurate (by those recieving fire from them).

A PF100 has a velocity of 60 M/s. If held at 6 degrees elevation, most targets 2m height and under (assuming a prone firer) will be struck out to about 70m. Maximum flight time (70m) is 1 1/4 sec.

I am not sure how the germans set up the sights but the 'accuracy' (basically a low lob) is there. Shooting at further ranged targets would also have this 'zone' of ranges where tank sized targets are struck (but it gets narrower with range) and would not cover the near ground (of course).

I would speculate that in defense it would be easy to pace off known distances. No range finding needed. This further enhanced 'accuracy'.

A PF100 fired at 45 degrees would go slightly over 200m and land at a very steep angle. Possibly as much as 70 deg. It would reach 68 m height and take 7 1/2 secs to land.

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