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When to use "Withdraw" Command


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I only use it if im done with that unit, they are out of ammo(mortar team, HMG, etc) or something like that. In the manual i think it says there is a 50% chance that they will rout or something like that if you use it. I was thinking there has to be something I dont know about it, and what it can do for you.

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i just use them for crews. i find that if my squad is in really that much trouble, by the time they withdrawled they would be completely routed and ruined anyways.

and when I use them for crews, I withdraw them off the map for points. I dont know how much points it gives, but its better than nothing.

Originally posted by Snowbart:

I was thinking there has to be something I dont know about it, and what it can do for you.

its an instaneous command with no delay at all. in theory it can save lives, if shake your men. i dont think its that effective for casual use however

[ May 01, 2003, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: securityguard ]

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Originally posted by Snowbart:

I never use this command, but I'm sure it must be useful in some situations. Can anyone give me some pointers?

It should be used, and used aggressively, if it is the only form of birth-control being used.

Remember: Accidents cause people.

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Yesterday wanted to pull my men out in time of their position and well.. it was a pain in the arse to get them withdraw.

Each time when group of enemy troops fired on them, they crawled back to their foxholes.

Those enemies were even quite far away to be actually effective in the firing.

They could've easily just hit run, hit the dirt, run... instead of hitting the dirt and crawling back.

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Don't bother. Just "Advance" to the rear. You don't take the morale hit and your troops use available cover. There will be a command delay this way, but if your troops are dead by the end of that they would have been dead anyway IMHO whatever command you used.

[ May 01, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Captain Pies ]

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There is no good use for "withdraw" in any way which its title implies it should be used. If you use it *correctly*, you simply put yourself in a position to die even more quickly.

The first place you should be able to use this command that comes to mind is on defense, with your front layer defense line. So, as soon as you spot the superior enemy approaching, you "withdraw" to your main line defense? I don't think so. The whole idea of your front line defense is to get the attacker to spend his arty and waste HE on you there, so he cannot use it on you later when he gets to your main line. You want to do some damage up front, and force him to spend HE. This of course means you have to engage. Well, against superior numbers it doesn't take very long to get pinned, and once pinned withdraw cannot save you . . . it only kills you faster.

I have found the more effective way to "withdraw" is to "assualt" backwards 3-5 meters a turn. Or, if you've done enough damage and it is time to fallback to the main line, use a joint command: "sneak" back 4-5 meters and then "fast" move or "advance" from there to safety. If you sneak out of sight in any reasonable cover, and the enemy isn't right on top of you, then the enemy won't see you move. If you use the "withdraw" command, you will be immediately shot, and almost certainly pinned right back down. You are almost always better off staying and fighting to the death than to use "withdraw" in a stressful situation. Even if your troops are pinned, so long as they are not trying to withdraw away, there is still a reasonable chance they will return fire. So my assessment is the "withdraw" command is a no go under what would be "realistic" conditions.

However, I have found a few good "gamey" ways to use it:

-Split a squad and "withdraw" him to distract an enemy tank turret in the wrong direction, just as your armor is about to engage him from the opposite flank.

-If you want to close assualt armor with infantry (demo, etc) and you are desperate, split several squads and "withdraw" to positions all around the enemy armor. You will lose lot's of infantry, very possibly all of them . . . but you would be surprised how well this works. This is of course not the best way to close assualt tanks with infantry, but it is instant, and if you are desperate then I recommend it.

-"withdraw" your reserves hidden in the back to strengthen a threatened area in your line, because the window of free movement is about to be chopped away by an enemy MG position that is being setup. Again, there are better ways to shift your reserves, this tactic is only if you are desperate and those extra seconds mean life or death.

Someone mentioned withdrawing troops become routed? horse-pucky. They will occasionally panic for a few seconds, but if they are not taking fire they will recover almost instantly (note I have not tried this with green or conscript troops, which may behave differently. With regulars or better, this is simply not a problem).

hope this helps.

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The best situation to withdraw from is where your troops are on the edge of a wood or building, so they'll be out of LOS after a few metres. I sometimes use a few split squads to recce jumping off points (usually wooded) on the attack. If they draw off table arty or lots of direct fire HE it's worth withdrawing, as otherwise they'll almost certainly be routed or destroyed. Since these squads are usually out of command, the alternative would give a big delay. I don't usually use it with forward elements on defence, as the delay value of hanging in there usually outweighs the value of recovering the squad.

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My experience with the withdrawl command has typically been very bad when under fire. It's just a way to perhaps get doomed troops dead faster rather than just leave them there where thy at least will still remain facing the enemy in a position to at least try shooting back. If the unit is within smallarms fire, then this is probably more so. Expect to loose all control of the withdrawing unit.

I have mentioned before (and after conducting a few tests) how I think ANY infantry unit wanting to literally "move in a direction away from enemy smallarms fire" in CM, be it a by any of the selction of movement commands, is severely disadvantaged just by the basic common fact that they will in all cases have to expose themselves to fire to their most vulnerable "morale sensitive" rear. Even if the command to withdraw is NOT used, it normally means the unit will break rout and loose control anyways.

The plain fact is that if ANY infantry unit at ANY range is under smallarms fire, it is SAFER (at that instant) for that unit to move TOWARDS the incoming enemy fire than it is to move AWAY from the incoming enemy fire. This leads to situations where players end up only giving commands to infantry units that involve them either moving towards the enemy fire or leaving them where they are. This is safer than ANY movement command which moves them away from the enemy fire because in doing that, the CM infantry icons are incapable of reverse movement and ALWAYS require them to turn around and expose their rear to enemy fire. You will find that by the time it takes an infantry unit under fire to physically spin 180deg to face away from the fire, it would has already broken, panicked or broken regardless of what the movement command was given. The penalty/risk for just rotating to face away from the enemy to excute ANY move is generally too great to consider any moves away from the enmy fire.

It is currently impossible in CM to simulate the difference between an organsied individual squad based tactical withdrawl under fire (involving cover fire, leap frogging) and a faster moving controlled "retreat" by troops away from enemy fire (which really is best simulated in CM by a FAST command away from enemy fire).

I for one hope one day CM could allow troops in certain circumstances to move in reverese away from enemy fire in a manner that does not expose them to the high risk penalities they currently face just for invariably exposing their rears to enemy fire just because the direction they want to move is away from the enemy.

I would also add that perhaps this "never turn your back to the enemy" type situation that makes disengagement overly risky (in my opinion) contributes to the "unrealistic" rate and number of casualties in CM battles that typically are meant to be representing just 20-40min of actual combat time.

Lt Bull

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I've done some tests with the withdraw command and I think it CAN be used effectively under the right specific circumstances. The key, as Monty's Double has suggests, is that you MUST have a covered line of withdrawal. According to my tests, almost all units, even crack or vet, will panic in the seconds after the withdrawal starts. If they remain under fire, that panic will turn to rout, they will go to ground, and they will die. OTOH, if they are retreating back into cover, they will panic even as they disengage from fire, but, as long as they remain in command, they will quickly recover and live to fight another day.

The key is to set up your initial positions with the withdrawal already in mind. PLAN your covered lines of retreat and don't wait to long to use them. If your troops can excute an "advance" to the rear, that's preferable, since there will be a morale boost rather than penalty. But if they're pinned and another order would result in a long and possibly fatal delay (because, for example, your units are under tank fire), then withdrawal into cover is the way to go.

In short, it's not easy to use (was much more powerful in CMBO) and requires advance planning to be used effectively, but I use it all the time and in fact rely upon it.

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I'm using 'Withdraw' more and more often, and I'm finding it a useful command.

Some pointers:

DON'T wait til your men are already doomed! Decide ahead "I'll have my men lay down fire from this position, then bugger-off to their secondary fire positions before things get too hot". Quickly withdrawing through a large building to the next street over seems to be the safest bet.

Assume the men will panic along the way. Maybe they won't, but if they do make sure you've sent them to a location they'll have a couple peaceful turns to recover. Don't send them out of the frying pan and into the fire.

One advantage withdraw has is it's harder for incoming fire to send your men to ground and keep them immobile. I can't tell you how many times I've given a 'Move' command only to see my squad drop to their bellies and stay there til the Russian assault squads come bursting in the door.

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