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some Kursk questions


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I have some ambitions to make an operation with Panthers and maybe a battalion-sized area for them to try and fight their way through. The rarity of Panthers means i think i want to create something semi-historical rather than straight out of Grossdeutschland division history. (Incidentally if people have Kursk scenario recommendations, i'd love to hear them...)

I've been poring over the 1986 Glantz paper that's online and am about to check out some of his books from my school library, but i have a few questions people here might be able to answer quickly:

-Were PTRS AT rifles more common to Guards units, being a more sophisticated, 'better' weapon than the PTRD, or was there no pattern to their distribution?

-What would the minimum number of Panthers on the attack at any time plausibly be? A depleted company? And did they ever operate in direct cooperation with other types such as IIIN's, only other heavies like the IVG, or never with anything but other Panthers?

-What were the 'typical' artillery calibres and bombardments for Germans attacking?

I guess what i'd like to know is the German side of JasonC's very thorough posts on this forum about Soviet company-size AT strongpoints at Kursk some time back, i think that was in response to that flawed 'Wittman in the East' scenario.

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like the sound of it, could make for a good player v AI game, which is always difficult (to make a gud un!) Hitler held back the Kursk offensive to let Ferdinands (Elephants) and King Tigers come up to the line, so you could include some of those, AT rifles wont touch em though! Maybe have a tank battle towards the end. loads of bunkers, have fun! Did read a good account of it in...think it was Steve Carrel. no cant remember, something like that.

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Tigers, not King Tigers ;)

You may want to check out a scenario on the scenario depot called Strachwitz at Kursk.

The guys who made that iirc said it was very thoughly researched. That features Panthers, Tigers, MK IVs, MK IIIs all fighting together pushing forth on a map made up of Soviet AT batteries.

I dunno it made provide some ideas ?

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Having a close look at Strachwitz at Kursk right now, boy is it big. I think there are many good ideas there, especially with how the AI can use ATGs.

I'm too lazy to test run my own operation myself, but what happens when you add fortifications as reinforcements? I assume you can just place them wherever you like at the setup of the battle you get them? I want some mobile obstacle detachments, see...

Maybe this should be in scenario talk.

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Soviet `hedgehog` defences Citadel

As a rule the strongpoints were allocated three to five guns each, up to five AT rifles, two to five mortars, between a section and a platoon of sappers, and a section of submachine-gunners. On the most important axes (the railway?) strongpoint had up to 12 guns each.

If you can get it from the library Paul Carrell book Scorched Earth is a damn good read, no dry historian. Sadly T.E. right, no Kings, just as well!

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Originally posted by z-warfare:

Having a close look at Strachwitz at Kursk right now, boy is it big. I think there are many good ideas there, especially with how the AI can use ATGs.

I'm too lazy to test run my own operation myself, but what happens when you add fortifications as reinforcements? I assume you can just place them wherever you like at the setup of the battle you get them? I want some mobile obstacle detachments, see...

Maybe this should be in scenario talk.

Seriously too lazy to set up a small test operation and quickly play through it ... takes all of 5 minutes!

So a quick not even 5 minutes of testing will reveal that if fortifications, pillboxes etc are added as scheduled reinforcements they will appear in whatever battle you scheduled them to arrive in and they can be deployed as you said wherever you like.

Appear, the other reinforcements types, such as link to map also work. No ideas on Battalion etc reverse as I didn’t test them.

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Ok, well, i've found out for myself that mines work fine as scheduled reinforcements.

As for how the Germans attacked, i will presume it was straightforward Eastern front blitzkrieg, 1943. Panzerkeil and all that.

[ June 24, 2007, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: z-warfare ]

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have an operation i slapped together before i got really serious about it... the trouble is that i wanted to represent a battalion defensive region, maybe about 2.5 km wide and 4 or 5 km deep including a forward security zone and some space behind, but then the Axis force hitting this becomes pretty unwieldy - i find a panzer regiment (or even a half a regiment) worth of units a nightmare to manage.

So maybe either the whole thing should be smaller, like back to company-level, or the forces tweaked so that a smallish but skillfully handled German force can fight through the antitank region and be in decent shape to engage tanks at the end of it... Not sure what to do.

Email me through the Proving Grounds and i'd be happy to send you what i have so far. On that note i've had a look at a bunch of those RKKA maps but if there are certain ones you suggest i examine closely, please send them to me as well...

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Hi

Will email you later today (moving house today so pretty busy).

Look at the maps relating to the 375th Rifles and the 52nd. These are neighbouring units from the 6th Guards Army and the detail goes down to battalion level and gives numbers of guns and ATRs. I would think that to take a battalion wide slice through the 5/375th would give you a map 1km by 6km with 1 battalion in first line with 8 76mm ZIS3 and 2 76mm short 8 45mm, then an ATG position No1 with 20 76mm ZIS3, half a battalion in second line in a further strong point in a village called No7 with 12 76mm and AT position No3 with 8 76mm. Lurking at the rear of the position is the 96th Tank Brigade with 63 T-34 (cut them down to a battlion of 21 or maybe 32). Factor in a steady stream of German reinforcements and I think you have a manageable sized game.

cheers

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