Canadian Inf vs. Panther

[HarryInk]

He's driving a Panther through a thin corridor of scattered trees. I've got Canadian infantry in the woods either side (!). I'll admit there's no PIATs there. Tell me the truth: the canucks are going to do diddley squat without AT assets, aren't they? My guess is yes, they'll do zilch. They'll just ping with their Enfields and feel embarrassed....

I'm in search of dissenting opinions... *LOL*

[Conscript Bagger]

They'll probably throw grenades, which is the game's way of showing a close assault. Do you have an HQ unit in those woods? They are (at least anecdotally) held to be more effective at disabling tanks this way.

[HarryInk]

Thanks for the reply and the tip re: HQ squads

Nah. Just detachments.

I appreciate they'll prolly use grenades, but is there any chance of the grenades doing anything in this close terrain?

[Lithuanian]

They will probably try to get the TC's jersey over his head, try and give him a good pounding.

[flamingknives]

If you've got enough men and grenades, you stand a fair chance of doing some damage.

[Wicky]

Try and attack the panther unseen from the rear after making it button up

Like this: 1.3mb Quicktime mov

It’s a bit dark as it’s from a CMBB night battle but it shows a successful tank assault, admittedly by a soviet infantry officer against an open top TD

PS. If your name is Tooz DONT LOOK!!!

[ September 09, 2004, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[Gpig]

Hee hee!

Wicky, that was AWEsome!

Gpig

[Wicky]

My pleasure

Originally posted by Gpig:

Hee hee!

Wicky, that was AWEsome!

Gpig

[Macphail]

big difference between a self-propelled gun and a panther. its easy to throw a grenade into a marder!

[HarryInk]

Well, I'll let you know the result. I suspect he'll rumble on past. It was a good innovation to add the 'follow vehicle' command in CMBB.

[Wicky]

A quick test with reg Canadian infantry v reg Panther

Panther going through scattered trees (July/overcast) with infantry in woods (turned off)

Panther Part 1 QT.mov

Panther Part 2 QT.mov

Originally posted by KG_Steiner:

big difference between a self-propelled gun and a panther. its easy to throw a grenade into a marder!

[JasonC]

Don't "follow vehicle". Remain stationary with a covered arc set where you expect the tank to go. Your chance of hitting it is not sensitive to how close you are, as long as you are within about 30-35m. It is however very sensitive to suppression - whether it sees you and is firing at you. A unit the tank is firing at has essentially no chance of hurting it. The same goes for anyone within about 25m of whatever it is shooting at - pretty much.

But anyone who is unsuppressed and has a covered arc in the right spot, and has about 30 seconds, is likely to get off a "grenade" aka close assault. Which has a solid chance of immobilizing even a buttoned heavy tank, and some chance of killing it outright. A better chance than infantry with molotovs, in fact.

You are more likely to get those 30 seconds from a number of units if the tank stops. But chasing it won't really help, because it will see you and fire and suppress people, sending your attack chance to zero. Your best bet is ambush - about a 40m covered arc, not hiding, and facing the right direction - by multiple infantry units.

[junk2drive]

i had luck with a bazooka hiding in a foxhole, next to a road with a short cover arc behind them. the advancing troops didnt spot them and once a tank went past, they stood up and fired enough times to knock out the tank before being gunned down.

yes i know i shouldnt have gotten in that position in the first place. they got suppressed when i wanted to retreat them. poor weather, low visibility.

[HarryInk]

Ah, you're all such sweethearts with your talk of covered arcs. This is CMBO I'm talking here!! lol

Still, I'm honored to have JasonC *cue choral blast* (et al to drop in on one of my threads. *VBG* I'll try the 25-45 metre gig anyway.

And HOT DAMN Wicky, those are ace little movies. Encouraging too. How do you get them up like that on the site?

[ September 10, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: HarryInk ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Your chance of hitting it is not sensitive to how close you are, as long as you are within about 30-35m.

This is wrong. The closer you are the faster and more accurate the grenades are (in BB and AK).

[Redwolf]

(Simple) Grenades were also much more effective against tanks when thrown from HQs (even those without bonusses) for me.

I never really tested it but I got rid of many a KV going this, at up to 40m. Rarely works with squads, even in command.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Redwolf:

(Simple) Grenades were also much more effective against tanks when thrown from HQs (even those without bonusses) for me.

I never really tested it but I got rid of many a KV going this, at up to 40m. Rarely works with squads, even in command.

Think you're talking BB here? I never did notice HQs being more effective than squads in BB, but I remember you mentioning it. I have not run a test on that specifically, but I have run countless grenade lobbing tests with squads.

"Rarely works" is a bit strong. Squads start to throw grenades out at 39.5 meters. The ROF is very slow at this range . . . .expect 1 or 2 grenades per turn tops, and poor accuracy. As your squads get closer to the tank, you will notice the ROF increases, as does the accuracy.

If the tank is moving, grenade accuracy decreases dramatically. So obviously it's much better to close assualt a non-moving vehicle.

A few tips for close assualting with grenades:

-remember squads will still throw grenades while "sneaking", they don't have to be stationary.

-if a tank rolls up to one of your squads who is in good cover the conceals him (i.e.woods), split your squad where he stands to double your grenade ROF. May be gamey but it works

-if you move in to close assualt a tank with multiple squads, rush him at the same time, from multiple angles.

[Redwolf]

My HQ preference is purely gut feeling from my early CMBB gaming.

Most CMAK games I played didn't have the need or opportunity for close assault on AFVs.

[HarryInk]

Them is good tips WN.

I have to admit that I'd be a little disappointed if my grenades have any effect. Having been to a tank museum not so long ago and seeing the industrial scale of the monsters, it'd seem a little strange if little single grenades could achieve much against them.

Still waiting for the turn....

[Spears]

It represents close assault, ie one of your men unseen through the 3 man squads will move up to the tank and place it wherever a soldier may place it. The turret, the tracks even the barrel of the main weapon, I wouldnt do this as the co-axle mg faces along it, hehe and could be a nasty suicide, but hey im not a ai bad ass like some of these hero`s.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Spears:

It represents close assault, ie one of your men unseen through the 3 man squads will move up to the tank and place it wherever a soldier may place it. The turret, the tracks even the barrel of the main weapon, I wouldnt do this as the co-axle mg faces along it, hehe and could be a nasty suicide, but hey im not a ai bad ass like some of these hero`s.

Well, but it works out to 40 meters, so it goes bejond close assault as in walking on the engine deck.

Jason made a good point recently that the hand grenades are overpowered in CMBB and CMAK, and you cannot explain that away with close assault due to the distance.

[HarryInk]

Well, just to update you on the result - and sorry I can't post a nifty movie:

Turn N: Panther enters the scattered trees corridor between 'walls' of woods. Passes a half-squad that has been firing on it as it approaches to keep it buttoned up.

I plot the two other nearby half-squads to race over - one passing in front of the tank (remember, this is CMBO!), the other behind.

Turn N+1: Panther unbuttons but the stationary half-squad quickly persuade Fritz to pull his head in. They grenade attack at 10-30m as the Panther moves away along the corridor. No hits. As Redwolf [?] noted, much less luck vs. a moving tank. Other squads arrive - the 'in front' squad ends up behind and looking down the barrel of the long 75!

Fortunately, the Panther happens to be moving forward on the axis of my retreat line, so I am able to use Withdrawal commands on all 3 half-squads to plot them to race to his likely exit from the trees and triangulate him. At the very least it will keep him buttoned up. This is important as a Sherman 75 & a Firefly approach at speed.

Turn N+2: He booms the half-squad in his sites. Weighed down by the new contents of their shorts, the canucks kiss the dirt while the other 2 squads race past. The Panther exits the trees onto the roadway with turret facing rearwards still lambasting the earth-mother-worshipping footsloggers. The Sherman 75, which is leading, puts a nice shot through the hull on it's second attempt - all well and good too as the Panther had stopped watching the infantry and was swirling about to face. Sad for the Germans however, the driver was traversing left and the gunner traversing his slow load right - probably doubling the time the tank would have taken to get on target. Anyway, the infantry arrive in time to shoot down the fleeing crew.

A happy result for me tho' not for my luckless opponent. Can you believe that earlier in the game, this poor fella took on 4 of my Shermans with a Tiger and 2 flanking 88 ATGs and came out having lost his lot and scored only a single hit on one of my tanks. Ares is not a fair master. Don't forget to make regular sacrifices!!

Thanks for the discussion.

[Wicky]

Good result - But now buy CMAK so your opponent can use armour cover arcs to ignore your crunchies