Okay, so the russian stuff really sucks in game?

[JasonC]

600 point meeting engagement.

Germans - one veteran armored pioneer platoon.

Russians - (all regulars) one mech company (2 rifle, 1 SMG platoon, 8 and 7 man squads), one T-34 platoon, 1 Maxim MMG, 1 82mm mortar (on-map), 2 ATRs, 1 DP LMG.

The Russians have 9 squads of 7-8 men, the Germans have 6 each of 6. The Russians have 4 HQs, one of them a 7-man company HQ who can command anybody, the Germans have 1 platoon HQ. The Russians have 1 MMG and 6 vehicle MGs, the Germans have 7 vehicle MGs. The Russians have 7 DP LMGs, the Germans have 3 MG-34s. The Russians have 39 of the best SMGs in the game, the Germans have 4 crappy MP40s. The Russians have 117 men, the Germans have 60. The Russians have 3 76mm cannons with abundant HE and canister, plus an 82mm mortar with indirect fire capability, the Germans have 12 hand-placed demo charges. The Russians have 3 fully armored vehicles that little in 1942 can take out from the front at range, The Germans have 7 thin tin cans that die in seconds to 76mm fire, and in a few minutes even to ATR fire.

Point costs are the same.

Is the moral that the Russians are much better than the Germans? Only sorta. The real moral is that actual armor, plus flexible and numerous infantry, supported by heavy weapons teams, are vastly more effective than silly halftracks.

Just for amusement, I let the AI command the Germans. Russian losses - 1 SMG gunner, 1 rifleman, and 1 ATR ammo carrier sidekick. German losses - the works. Elapsed time, 10 minutes.

[David I]

RS Colonel,

Yep that's right, it is night and day. JasonC has the right approach. Play the Germans for their strong points and the Russians for theirs. For the most part the Russian can usually buy a bunch more stuff for the same points than the Germans can. Use it. Totally accurate. Let's see, how many Russians were on the front vs. the Germans? Alot more. How many Russians got killed vs the Germans? Alot more.

Who won?

DavidI

[Sergei]

David, the amounts of Russians vs. Germans across the front has no meaning in a matchup with equal points.

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Nobody seems to have noticed that the supposedly sensible German tactics are a complete fantasy, at best a stupid AI trick. Against any competent player you'd just die. Light armor is ridiculously easy to kill, including with light, stealthy shooters.

Oh, is it? Perhabs in open terrain where the russkies can shoot unseen with their 14.7mm ATR all day long.

But in an Urban environment with LOS often less than 50 meters, there are no "unseen stealth shooters".

I would actually argue that TANKS are just as easy to kill in those settings (close infantry attacks eliminate them just as nicely as any HTs).

Some of you guys seem to have a GIANT chip on your shoulder along the lines of "If you don't play scenarios against humans, but QBs and against the AI, you suck".

Well, the only thing that sucks is your attemp to dictate how CMBB should be played.

[Bigduke6]

Colonel,

Chill out. Some of the people here are really giving you good advice. Ignore the ones that aren't. I personally don't play QBs much but I am right now, and I am having a delightful time squishing an ueber-German force with low-budget, Green, Soviet firepower - in a city.

The way to win in an urban environment with Russians is to go in with a personnel and firepower advantage, which in a QB you definately will if you pick Greens and the German goes Veteran, and use numbers to defeat the German quality.

The best way to spot is to have a pair of eyes looking somewhere, and nothing is shooting at the eyes.

So, in a town or city, Russians should send forward a cloud of infantry not so much to kill things, as to find things. Once you find it the German will of course shoot up the infantry it sees, but rig things so that some one else on the Russian side can see the engagement.

This is of course nothing more than overwatch, not exactly a new infantry tactic.

Once you find the German bring up the firepower and smash him. The tricky bit is knowing how hard to press with your infantry up front; too fast and they'll go to pieces, too slow and you give the German a chance to react and/or take your forces piecemeal.

But in general Soviets are great in city environments, because their effectiveness goes up exponentially the closer they get to the enemy. Germans are studly at long-range shooting, and there is even some evidence the CM engine is biased against some forms of Soviet AP, but in a city, that don't make much difference.

[John Kettler]

RSC,

The behavior you find so maddening by your scout cars is, I believe, based solidly on the knowledge that at that range or a bit less, the MG-42 can penetrate the scout cars' armor frontally, whereas the 251 with its much better angled armor is essentially immune to Russian 7.62mm MG fire at that range, hence fights. Search the early CMBO archives for some vulnerability plots for U.S. and German halftracks to see what I mean. Your scout car is merely a smaller U.S. halftrack, but without the halftrack unit installed yet, so the comparison should be valid. Without knowing more about your troops, though, I couldn't say why your pioneers aren't up to snuff. Could be morale, could be leader bonuses, could be other things, too.

Regards,

John Kettler

[RSColonel_131st]

Duke,

Thanks for the added detail on employing russian stuff.

John,

Also thanks for explaining the key difference between the 251's armor and the M3 armor. That gives the whole story a bit of sense to it.

As for the reason why '43 sovjets have 20 second command delays and can't identify units very well - no clue either.

[John_d]

There should be no reason why Soviet troops don't work well in urban environments. I try to use short, limited objective infantry rushes from one building or block to the other with MGs on overwatch. The trick here is to remain out of sight and in cover for as long as possible, then utilise the Soviets short range advantage. In my experience, there is very little that the Soviet SMG squads can't kill (in terms of infantry), providing u keep them out of harm's way until the last 30m or so. I once had a SMG platoon wipe out the best part of a German rifle company and 2 Panzer IVs and still made it back home ok. That was in a forest where LOS is limited anyway, but the moral of tale still holds for urban combat. Soviet infantry squads tend to suck when under long range enemy fire, so don't let the enemy see your troops until they're virtually on top of them and just swamp the enemy positions.

Failing that, just blow down or burn down anything that looks like trouble.

Perhaps the commnd delays are meant to reflect the fact that Soviet officers were often poorly trained and very young, especially during Operation Barbarossa where most of the experienced members of the officer corps were wiped out in Stalin's purges. Interestingly, I have read commentaries suggesting that the orgy of looting, rape and violence towards the German civilian population in 1945 was largely due to the inability of lower ranking Soviet officers to control their troops.

[John Kettler]

RSC,

You're welcome. Would also add that the 251 has a nicely shielded MG mount, whereas the M-3's MG mounts are highly exposed, being shieldless.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

No T-34s do not die as easily as halftracks in an urban environment. They button. They have canister. When an SPW meets a T-34 on a street, guess what happens? When a pioneer half squad meets a 7 man all SMG squad, guess what happens?

I expected a slightly different gripe, that armor is obviously better than HTs. It is. But I don't need it, that German force still sucks. Overpriced, useless weapons.

I took a Russian infantry division force, infantry force type, and still kicked its ass. Just took slightly longer. I specifically took a force I might use against an infantry heavy expected opponent.

Company, 1942 B type (12 9 man squads each 3 SMG)

2 MMG, 1 82mm, 2 ATR, 1 Vet Sniper

2 76mm Mountain Guns

1 120mm FO.

That is 150 men for the price of the German's 60, and vastly better armed in HE and small arms. But oh gosh, no armor and a ME. Won't the armor clobber them? Because people can't use infantry or heavy weapons or patience, or move around without their security blanket?

4 SPWs were KOed by one mountain gun, which maneuvered around on foot just fine. The other 3 had their MG gunners capped in various ways. This time I lost 19 men, and it took 17 minutes before the last 5 men surrendered. Another 5 routed off the map before the end. No armor necessary.

HTs are a waste of points.

If you want a specifically urban Russian force, you can take a full company of SMG infantry. You'd only take a pioneer company in a battalion sized fight. You can still take T-34s to toss HE. Just keep them a block behind the SMGs, keyholed on the currently targeted building. If your opponent it HT-happy, add a few foot 50 cals. They will swiss 'em at point blank easily, and go through buildings.

[JasonC]

Here are some Russian urban fighting forces at the 600 point level.

Infantry division infantry force type take -

Regimental SMG company

Pioneer company

2 50 cal HMG

2 Flamethrower

1 Veteran Sniper

2 ATR

3 DP LMG

Tasking - form 2 "all purpose" platoons from the 2 company HQs, each with company HQ, SMG squad, pioneer squad, 50 cal HMG, and flamethrower. These are initially second line and move up to take out any specific target type. Form 2 AT platoons from the pioneer platoon HQs, each with platoon HQ, 2 pioneer squads, 1 ATR. They are also second line initially and they set armor ambushes with demo charges etc. The 3 SMG platoon HQs each keep 2 squads, the best of them keeps its 3rd. Split the smaller ones into 4 and 5 man SMG half-squads. The DPs and sniper are listening posts.

That is 190 men, 87 of them armed with PPsh, with lots of special weapons. It is also around 40 units with most of the SMGs split. Meaning, you get very good area coverage and are hard to get out of any appreciable mass of buildings, because you are in every corner.

Mech division, unrestricted or armor force type

T-34 platoon (early 1943 model in September e.g.)

Motorized SMG company

Then add one of the following -

more armor - 2 T-70s, 1 ATR

more infantry - 4th SMG platoon, 2 ATRs

scouting detail - Vet sniper, BA-64 AC, 2 50 cal, 2 DP LMG. (Trade 50 cals for 2nd BA-64 and 2 ATRs, optional for speed).

artillery support - 120mm FO, ATR.

These fight with an SMG screen ahead, T-34s in second line. T-34s keyhole and kill anything encountered while SMGs wait. Then move out again. With armor option, T-70s take flanks and can do riskier runs into potentially enemy country, e.g. to kill one enemy vehicle or cut a retreat street crossing. With infantry depth option, keep an SMG platoon in reserve, squads not split, and use to assault behind tanks. With scouting detail option, put DPs and sniper out on flanks, sprint forward early then go quiet and return spots. BA-64 runs around to extend known controlled areas or cut a street. 50 cals or ATRs go up on building 2nd floors looking down longer streets, as light armor harassers etc.

75-100 PPsh gunners plus 3-5 tanks. Just very high firepower.

[David I]

Sergei,

Sure it does. Thats why Russian stuff is so much cheaper that German stuff, especially when rarity is used. Look at the little mini-horde JasonC put together to face the Pz Pioneer Platoon even though both sides had the same amount of points. Would have been even more lopsided if he bought all Green troops. Why else would a ten man Russian squad cost less than a simularly armed 8 man German Infantry squad, etc. etc. I'm just saying that the Game acurately shows the disparity in numbers and material on the front.

DavidI

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Colonel,

Soviets did experience success in using infantry mounted in halftracks on urban terrain. motorized infantry is good in pursuit style combat missions where the enemy is withdrawing and trying to regroup. the MGs of the halftracks were good against already shaky enemy infantry.

the high command delays and limited ability to spot enemy units was most likely caused by low quality infantry. be sure to buy veteran infantry.

unlike some are saying, your tactics are sound and historical as long as you are not employing them against well prepared and determined enemy positions.

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally posted by JasonC:

No T-34s do not die as easily as halftracks in an urban environment. They button. They have canister.

When it gets hit by a surprise mine thrown from less than 30 meters away, the T-34 burns just as nicely as any HT. But for the price of a single german tank you get two HTs.

[Bigduke6]

It's a matter of taste, but in a QB I'd rather have Green infantry, because you can get a ton of it. For the price of single German tank you can get a platoon of SMG gunners; backed up by Maxim, an LMG, and an ATR or an AT squad - or almost a whole second platoon of SMGs.

With infantry that cheap, your tanks have no business getting out in front of it. Think Soviet: armored vehicles are more valuable than people.

UDR: Not to be overly picky, but I have looked high and low for cases of Soviets using halftracks as infantry battlefield taxis, and I haven't found it. From what I can tell halftracks were all imported, and they were used as command vehicles or prime movers for big towed artillery pieces.

From what I've been able to gather the Soviets used a combination of truck infantry up to close to the battle, and then either tank-mounted or on foot once they were in the battle. (Armored cars don't count, they went to the recon boys, I have read.)

So where was it the Soviets used the halftracks to support infantry? I had no idea.

[Tagwyn]

RSC: I was trying to compliment BFC for the accuracy of thier game!! Your responsive and derisive comments were puerile and uncalled for! It was obvious to most people what I was intending to say. Try getting up on the right side of the bed. LOL

Jason: Thanks, as usual, for your comments. Well said and thought provoking.

TAG

[MikeyD]

Russians take a BIG command hit to simulate Stalin's pre-war officer purges. So early-war Russian regulars are like green German soldiers, etc. I believe things don't start to turn around until the Kursk battle in 43. commanding early war Russian troops is rather like herding cats, but by 1945 I'd stack veteran Russian Guards infantry against anyone else in the game.

About Russian halftracks retreating, their armor is so freakin' thin they make BT fast tanks look like Tigers! A MG42 at close range would go through them like swiss cheese.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

UDR: Not to be overly picky, but I have looked high and low for cases of Soviets using halftracks as infantry battlefield taxis, and I haven't found it. From what I can tell halftracks were all imported, and they were used as command vehicles or prime movers for big towed artillery pieces.

From what I've been able to gather the Soviets used a combination of truck infantry up to close to the battle, and then either tank-mounted or on foot once they were in the battle. (Armored cars don't count, they went to the recon boys, I have read.)

So where was it the Soviets used the halftracks to support infantry? I had no idea.

i checked what i had in mind when i wrote the post and you are totally correct! the actual main infantry elements were in fact mounted on trucks. my memory played tricks on me, most likely because the trucks were used so much like halftracks.

i stand corrected. thanks for pointing this out!

this gave me a thought. perhaps we should train ourselves on use of halftracks by first playing with trucks. once one can do effective quick advance with trucks, doing it with halftracks should be easy.

use of trucks should mean things like daring application of maneuver to flank enemy positions (possibly out of CM scope, at least with the smaller maps) even when already in contact with the enemy, quick unloading of supporting weapons at key positions and well-timed use of indirect fire. to create the pursuit conditions the German side should suffer some penalties, like lower troop quality and a percentage of casualties.

[imported_KG_ThorsHammer]

Well, facts are you have to play both sides differently. Russian forces at that time were not as well lead or as well trained and so command delays are longer; the manual has details on this.

The MG42 is a formidible weapon. At a minimum of 1200 rounds per minute, it can cut through a halftrack or scout car, and so the crew is wise to get the heck out of there. With Russian forces, quantity has a quality of its own, and can be put to good use.

[stoat]

Originally posted by zmoney:

No, I was pretty sure the Left side was the whinny and weenie side, but other than that I see where your coming from.

I was making an observation pertaining to the word "whinny." That's what a horse does. no_one undoubtedly was calling me whiny, which I very well might be.

[imported_no_one]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC:

No T-34s do not die as easily as halftracks in an urban environment. They button. They have canister.

When it gets hit by a surprise mine thrown from less than 30 meters away, the T-34 burns just as nicely as any HT. But for the price of a single german tank you get two HTs. </font>

[JasonC]

DCs kill tanks at 30m, yes. But 100 PPshs between the DC thrower and the tanks can make it rather hard to get there. Cities have things called streets. You can sight along them, between the buildings. You can keyhole from a row back, with your infantry in the front row seats. All SOP.

As for the love of mounted infantry, I put it down to two things. One, people used to modern doctrine (and idealized forms of it, at that) projecting it back into WW II, where it doesn't really belong. Two, people frustrated at the difficulty moving infantry across open ground presents to the inexperienced CMBB or CMAK player, who give themselves an easier task instead of learning how to do it.

The Russians used motorized infantry with their mech forces, truck mounted, to keep up with the tanks and provide combined arms to some extent, but especially to hold areas cleared by the tanks. Combined arms came from tank riders, in a minimalist fashion.

The motorized rifle formations were in addition to the riders, and tiered. E.g. tank brigades had a battalion, while tank corps had another brigade. They had motorized guns, typically designated as anti-tank formations. They had motorized heavy mortars, 120mm. The usual infantry heavy weapons too, of course (82mm, MMGs, ATRs).

They could truck in anyplace the tanks had cleared of enemy, set up infantry and heavy weapons positions backed by arty, and dig in. The tanks were then free to move to the next target. They were the "keepers" in the Mech "ratchet", in other words. While tanks with riders took things. The latter were quite tank heavy in CM terms - a company of tanks per company of infantry, armored force type force ratios.

There are other natural roles for the motorized infantry in specific types of terrain - river crossings, clearing a forest - and tactical roles - night infiltration e.g. All done dismounted, tactically, but in locations they'd only reach operationally if they had vehicles. Tank formations needed the option to do such things, so they had motorized infantry attached.

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally posted by no_one:

This is just a suggestion,ok?I don't want to offend you or anything,but have you thought about keeping them further away than 30m? I have seen them fire canister starting just under 100m,and they can fire their HE quite a long ways.

In a large town as presented by CMBB maps, line of sight can be very short. Of course you can keep your tanks 100m back, but then they often won't have anything to fire at.

[JasonC]

That is 3 minutes in to a QB urban ME. The smaller tanks on the flanks are T-70s - enough to disrupt the SPW platoon on their own, really.

The big ones in the middle at the T-34s of course. Their "nest" is right behind the objective area. They look out right and left front, not straight ahead. They interlock fields of fire with the T-70s on the flanks. The center T-34 is a reserve and the HQ tank. It can swing out to either flank position to replace a T-70 if necessary, or double up a side that has targets. The lines show they can see quite a few buildings. Short movements let them see additional ones.

The red circles are around SMG platoons, still moving up. One rode in on the backs of the T-34s, the others ran the first minute to reach buildings and have been moving since. There are four of them because the company HQ has borrowed 1 1/2 SMG squads, along with an ATR, to form a third. A minute later the SMGs will be all through the forward block ahead of the tank nest. Getting within 30m is not going to be easy or fun.

[RSColonel_131st]

I'll get you a screenshot of our current PBEM map. It certainly isn't as open as you show it here.