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I have read in the manuals and elsewhere about TRPs and their usefullness in drastically reducing arty delays. But I haven't figured out how to use them. Are they something that the scenario designer has to put in a battle, or can they be instantiated in every battle? I would appreciate it if anyone could help me out with this. The delays are killing me!

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If you have TRPs, then you will see them on the map, and can deploy them in the setup phase. Unlike other units, TRPs can be setup anywhere on the map, not only in your own area.

If they arrive in a QB, then they will be in your setup area. If they are present in a scenario, they will likely be located somewhere on the map, not necessarily in a setup area.

Mini spoiler:

If you really want to see one, you can get the CMAK demo and play Line of Defense. The Allies at least get TRP(s).

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In a QB, fortifications (and TRPs are counted as such) are usually among the last units. If you have selected no unit and press "-", you usually start at the last unit. As soon as you reach the first vehicle or team, you have cycled thru all of your TRPs (if any). I'm not sure if this holds for scenarios. Maybe you've got to cycle trhu all units.

In a scenario or QB, you can select large chunks of the map and check whether units are there by selecting that area. Your units are marked then, and so do TRPs. It is a classic target icon - you'll recognize it once you see them.

Hint: Only close counts with TRPs. 100m away and they have no effect on arty delay and accuracy (for all unmoved guns - off-board, ATGs, mortars, tanks etc)

Gruß

Joachim

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I was just reading an arty primer posted by Gremlin. It says that he believes TRPs are very common in defend/attack scenarios in real life but are surprisingly rarely seen in CM QBs or scenarios. I would tend to agree, which is why I was surprised to not have run across them in CM. If you were going to defend or attack a piece of ground, you certainly would study the terrain and pre-register targets if at all possible, knowing how devastating arty can be. Waiting 2 to 4 minutes can seriously throw off timing and mean the difference between victory and defeat, especially in CM, where battles are short and arty is limited. The situations when I have been able to time it right and have enemy escape routes covered with infantry, I almost feel bad for the enemy. Just think if arty could be delivered instantly and accurately. I would think TRPs would be priority one in drawing up a battle plan.

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Yes, they are surprisingly rare in CM. I have been trained in real life (Finnish mechanized infantry) as a platoon leader.

If I had to set up defenses for my platoon, I'd setup atleast 5-6 TRPs in the vicinity of the positions. Most likely advance routes like roads and forests would be covered + the positions themselves (incase we have to counter-attack back).

Usually a mechanized company has 1 artillery spotting squad attached to it, with 1 light spotting tank and 1 team on foot (so basically 2 spotters). A spotter could call fire from all kinds of artillery, usually only 1 type would be attached at a time though.

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Well, I did my service as a FO.

Nowdays you don't use TRPs as a FO. You got GPS(plus a small horde of non-satellite related navigational tools) that can pinpoint your position to a millimeter as well as FO equipment that will give you pretty automatic range and direction. And then the arty has GPS/navigationequipment of his own as well as a ballistic computer where they simply imput the weather data and where they want the shells to land. And you can get a hit within 25 meters at the first shot with fairly accurate weatherdata.´

You're still trained to be able to do it the old fashioned way though, in case everything fails or gets blown to bits, but it's not standard procedure.

The major advance of TRPs though was during the 70s with accurate mapping! Maps accurate enough to chart TRPs without pre-firing. I don't know if the WWII forces had maps that were accurate enough to chart TRPs. This was before the satellites came you know.

Actual TRPs where the arty had prefired with smokers/HE shells was probally alot rarer. Especially since the element of suprise would have been valuable, and as such only really available to the defense in case of a long term defensive position.

And the NORMAL "non-TRPd" Arty in CM is probally where the arty have already made rough pre-calcs. Otherwise in that day and age it would take alot of time to get some arty firing. Still. Compensating for 400 meters(roughly) isn't difficult from a pre-calc.

They didn't have any computers so the calcs would have to be made by hand and charts would have to be consulted etc etc. I have no idea how long it would take though.

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As I understand it, the US arty procedures were state of the art for WWII because they'd done a lot of the precalc and were able to get very fast and accurate fire missions most of the time. (I forget the details but it was much discussed in CMBO days and one could do a search to find out how it actually worked.)

To improve speed and accuracy of arty firing w/o TRPs--the key is to have direct LOS for your FO's, so set them up with good views of likely targets or move them by covered routes into the right positions. Then, pre-target likely positions and move or cancel if the enemy doesn't arrive there when expected. A 2-4 minute delay really isn't so bad if you anticipate enemy moves and have the arty ready and waiting for him. Be sure to have some MGs trained on the position to help you pin the enemy in place so your arty can hammer them. Remember that you get quick retargeting as long as you see a green line when you shift your target.

With really slow Russian arty when on the attack. you may want to consider using the pre-bombardment mode esp. if likely enemy defensive positions are pretty obvious. Defending with Russian arty, it's particularly important to anticipate enemy moves and have the arty call already vectored in. Then adjust or cancel as needed.

If you must have fast arty, mortar FO's are the way to go...Many premade scenarios come with these--you can start by slotting in some mortar fire, then bring in the heavier stuff after you've pinned the enemy units.

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Originally posted by Big Demonic Bunny:

[QB] Well, I did my service as a FO.

So have I BDB, actually still serving RAA(Reserve)

Have to agree on the way arty can react so quickly and with accuracy with modern equipment.

Takes the art out of artillery.

However TRP or Registered Targets are still required for defensive positions.

They are circulated throughout the whole position, i.e. Coy Commanders, Battery Commanders and up the chain it goes.

This helps the Commanders structure their defence and enable quick response from the guns if data is already set in the computers, ready to pass line to the guns

It also aids for quick reference to everybody on the position if enemy sited in the vicinity of "Twin Peaks"(VS1201)

Anyway what I want to know aren't TRP useful for direct fire weapons such as anti-tank guns?

I saw something about "bore sighted". This must mean an increased chance for a hit/kill, does it not?

What other weapon platforms can benefit from their use?

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And even unmoved tanks benefit from them. Unmoved defending vehicles also have camoflage bonus, so it can be a good way for a defending tank destroyer to score some early hits if they can do it from a range from where they are unnoticeable and are hiding in some scattered trees. The attacker probably can't hit before you have reversed your TD away. Should benefit something like Nashorn which otherwise die fast.

Pillboxes don't need TRP's, they get the bonus always.

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Originally posted by Sergei:

And even unmoved tanks benefit from them. Unmoved defending vehicles also have camoflage bonus.

On defending Veh. Does "hidding" have any real advantage. I had TDs in hidding and then just open up without orders. This can be frustrating if I am trying to plan a ambush.
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Originally posted by junk2drive:

What to do when the terrain rises and falls, your fo cant see far enough ahead to where you placed your trp? I played an op as russians, by the time i moved my spotters forward, fire arrival was after the end of battle.

Your FO doen't need LOS to fire on a TRP accurately - this is the other major advantage they confer to off-board arty (in addition to speedy response). You can leave your spotter back at the rear, sipping coffee or whatever, and he can still call fire quickly and accurately onto the TRP whenever you want him to. In fact, in really bad LOS conditions (in fog at night, for example), just about the only way to get anything useful out of Arty Spotters (other than pre-planned barrage, of course) is with TRPs.

It's still nice to have LOS to the TRP area, because then you can pull tricks like calling fire down on the TRP, and then "walking" the fire off the TRP as the enemy tries to get away, but this is icing on the cake. . .

Cheers,

YD

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Nowdays you don't use TRPs as a FO. You got GPS(plus a small horde of non-satellite related navigational tools) that can pinpoint your position to a millimeter as well as FO equipment that will give you pretty automatic range and direction. And then the arty has GPS/navigationequipment of his own as well as a ballistic computer where they simply imput the weather data and where they want the shells to land. And you can get a hit within 25 meters at the first shot with fairly accurate weatherdata.´

OK, this is a bit out of the time period, but even with all the fancy gear, it is still possible to screw up the artillery big-time.

There was an incident in Afghanistan using super-fancy GPS gear. In addition to getting your own location, you also have to adjust where you want the artillery to land by givig the proper offset. Now, to make matters easier, it is possible to enter the appropriate offset into the navigation aids and then all you have to do is read off the location and you have the target coordinates.

The only problem is that if you take out the batteries, the unit returns to the default setting of showing your own location.

So what happened is that the FO had the batteries die while waiting for the artillery to land. So, he changed them and reconfirmed the location -- only instead of the enemy, the GPS device was showing the FO's location. The artillery was accurate, killing the FO and some other friendly forces nearby.

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Yes we are getting of the time period, but...

I know that British FO use the GPS on flat terrain i.e. desert, by giving the guns cp the FO loc stat. Then using a laser range finder give a correction to the target from their own location. So in effect you are giving a target location as your position then applying a correction. You want to hope the guns cp apply the correction. I see that as a risky business.

Back to TRP..are they worth their value?

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Originally posted by Chappie:

Back to TRP..are they worth their value?

Value of TRPs depends on arty amount, arty delay and map.

The more arty, the more valuable the TRP (except if you can target any spot on the map with a "just in case" mission anyway)

The longer the delay of the arty, the more valuable a TRP. Worth of Soviet 203mm arty in a 20turn ME = nil. Add a TRP, and it will come down during the ME.

The bigger the map, the lower the value of an individual TRP. You need lots of them to ensure somebody stumbles across one - except if there are choke points the enemy has to pass.

TRPs are perfect to hit areas out of LOS where you know the enemy is. A TRP in the center of a forest. You seen lots of units moving in. A spotted barrage will only hit the forward edge and thus at least 1/3 are short. A TRP and all are on target, thus adding 50% to the value of the FO.

TRPs can be used for any gun - including ATGs, tanks and IIRC even 'zooks and 'schrecks... as long as they did not move yet.

A PaK40 and a TRP on a choke point 1000m away... likely first shot kill. If you get lucky, the enemy brings up many tanks to get rid of the gun.

Gruß

Joachim

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