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CMAK Infantry Survival


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wait until night

a problem with CMAK is that you are presented with tactical dilemnas that were not solved tactically.

it has already been discussed with the "how to take out Matilda's if you don't have an 88". The answer is you don't, you withdraw and bring in an 88 from somewhere.

If you are playing in the desert, the desert is for the most part worthless. You wouldn't launch infantry assaults over flat terrain with no cover. You would wait until night, circle around strategically, or do something else.

There is not a tactical solution to every problem.

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Originally posted by dugfromthearth:

wait until night...If you are playing in the desert, the desert is for the most part worthless. You wouldn't launch infantry assaults over flat terrain with no cover. You would wait until night, circle around strategically, or do something else.

I was under the impression that at El Alamein, the infantry spearheaded the attack and carried the brunt of it(Tobruk too). I seem to recall that it may have been a night attack, though...anyone know?
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Originally posted by 30ot6:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dugfromthearth:

wait until night...If you are playing in the desert, the desert is for the most part worthless. You wouldn't launch infantry assaults over flat terrain with no cover. You would wait until night, circle around strategically, or do something else.

I was under the impression that at El Alamein, the infantry spearheaded the attack and carried the brunt of it(Tobruk too). I seem to recall that it may have been a night attack, though...anyone know? </font>
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Okay, I respect the historical facts of infantry battles but, I'm looking for a logical way to play CMAK when there is little or no cover/concealment in the game.

Thus far, here is what I'm trying. Please let me know where I go astray.

1. Mass fire on suspected HQ units and mortars

2. Use Bounding overwatch to move forward

3. Use terrain even if it is too flat - brush et al

4. Smoke enemy MG's

5. Back up main body with Company Commander to pick up stragglers

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I have been thinking about this particular problem. I'm not sure whether it is possible to cover exposed ground with a purely infantry force, and I also wonder whether that was attempted on a routine basis. I think perhaps you have to use large amounts of HE to suppress the defenders, and throw up dust, or advance behind armour, at least armoured cars. With mortars and MG's overwatching to engage AT capable guns, of course.

[ December 26, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Sirocco ]

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

Okay, I respect the historical facts of infantry battles but, I'm looking for a logical way to play CMAK when there is little or no cover/concealment in the game.

Thus far, here is what I'm trying. Please let me know where I go astray.

1. Mass fire on suspected HQ units and mortars

2. Use Bounding overwatch to move forward

3. Use terrain even if it is too flat - brush et al

4. Smoke enemy MG's

5. Back up main body with Company Commander to pick up stragglers

This suggests you have your infantry too close together, which would imply you play too short scenarios.

In reality the defender would be shot to pieces by artillery, direct or indirect. No tiny smoking of a single MG position, if smoke then a whole frontage.

There would also be a lot of infantry, not a company.

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In the open for small arms fighting, range is cover.

Any own-side infantry force can be trashed if you push too hard, too fast, too deep into the lethal envelope of the defenders. Do not try to rush across the open ground as fast as possible. If the men are starting to pin, it is time to stop giving them additional orders to reduce the range.

Instead spend time rallying, let supporting weapons do their thing, and let the enemy burn his ammo or tighten his arcs if he wants to keep it. If you have full IDs, fire by whole platoons at individual units to suppress them - but only for one minute per target to as not to blow all your ammo. And not against men in trenches (against foxholes is fine).

Infantry's real problem advancing over open ground does not come from small arms. The above conceptual shift is all that is needed to deal with pure infantry defense. Instead, the real problem comes from enemy heavy weapons and MGs inside armor. Each of these has its own combined arms solution.

At long enough range, mere MGs only pin. It is annoying and it inflicts long delays, but it will not destroy you. The problem is that they generally have the ammo to keep this up for some time. As soon as you can get anyone close enough for a full ID, however, the open nature of the ground should make it easy for your own overwatch weapons - tanks, guns, mortars, snipers - to suppress these.

Guns with serious HE are tougher. They can break and half-squad you, easily, in a matter of a few minutes. The saving point is that the big ones tend to have large firing signatures, thus you get a full ID when they open up. You have to silence these with your mortars first and foremost. Tanks too thick for them to kill can help with the harder to spot, lower caliber stuff (e.g. light AA).

MGs inside armor (or bunkers, a similar case) can stop you in open ground without the infantry alone being able to do much about it. ATRs can annoy the lightest stuff in response, if you have them, but can't kill even that reliably or rapidly. Basically you depend on your own heavier weapons - guns and armor - to deal with enemy armor. In open ground you should be able to spot this armor easily.

The infantry's job is to spot things and force the stuff that can hide to give up its concealment stopping said infantry. Or to walk over them if they don't give up that concealment. Then the tanks and heavy weapons must take out the enemy tanks and heavy weapons. Only then can the infantry advance resume.

Do not think of the other weapons as mere auxiliaries "helping the infantry forward". The goal is not to get infantry across some "finish line". The only finish line that matters is the grave - for enemy units. (The rest follows if you achieve that, and nothing is actually accomplished if you don't - because a live enemy can break you at will if you come too close). The infantry is an auxiliary of your heavy weapons and armor, at least as much as the reverse.

But no, you do not need to inundate a position with off-board HE to attack in the desert with infantry. You need on board heavy weapons and armor to draw the high ammo, stealthy, long range "teeth" of the defending force (its MGs, light guns, etc).

If you've done that, any sufficient force can deal with the small-arms remainder. Whether that sufficient force is composed of infantry shooting by platoons from long range, or vehicles hosing with MGs, or direct HE from guns or tanks, or high caliber indirect HE.

I find desert makes off board HE less effective. The reason is open ground encourages spread deployments, without sacrificing integrated LOS. The targets are physically too large aka spread out, with too few men involved, to be the best targets for off board arty. Sometimes it can work when placed on the few available spots with cover. But if your opponent is willing to use marginal cover (which he should be), this only helps a little.

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The main problem is large terrain tile sizes in CMAK. We cannot get any small folds in the ground or little wadis for infantry to shelter in, therefore to give infantry a chance of being useful in the desert try a huge, rural, open map with small hills. This should give enough bush, rough, and small reverse slopes to approach an objective with a bit of careful thought. While small hills are not ideal for desert action, I think it is a fair compromise to deal with the terrain tile size problem.

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I read in another thread (the WAHT NEXT one, I think) that someone thought WWI might be an interesting place to go next. However, I don't think so ... because of the very thing yo'all are hashing over in this thread: lots of open space for infantry to cross with little-to-no cover. Sounds just like the Western Front to me. And the morons in the back, at HQ, never did seem to learn a damn thing about what was =really= going on at the front. Just my opinion, of course -- YMMV.

However, as a long time infantryman, I think the 'problem' boils down to simply this: the distance to close with the enemy versus the ranged distance of his weapons equals extremely lousy odds of survival, nevermind actual success. Yes, darkness can mitigate the 'equation', but darkness also increases the 'Murphy Factor' entirely too much, =especially= for anything less than very well trained =and= =experienced= troops. Oh, and this is =not= 'theory' talking, this is experience - BTDT. Of course, how well this is modelled in the CM engine - <shrug> - remains to be seen.

Also keep this in mind - the desert =never= =has= been a place where infantry was 'king'. Long-distance mobility has always been more important than toe-to-toe slugging ability. So, unless you're willing to simply overwhelm your opponent with numbers, a la the Romans, forget about infantry (only) actions in the open. Sneaky raids at night, okay, but 'maneuver actions' during the day, forget it.

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