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Grrr... Early War tactics against Soviet Tanks


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****Warning possible spoilers on B&T's Forgotten Front*****

Wow... well the battle continue to rages in my PBEM against Vinny... B&T's Forgotten Front (thanks B&T btw, excellent scenario) me as the Germans. With only 1 T-34 abandoned due to my 50mm defenses, and several light soviet tanks destroyed, things looked bad as there was still an unaccounted-for KV1 and lotsa T-34s. Then deliverance! the Panzers save the day! Or do they? In the next few turns, I manage to kill a few soviet tanks, but most shots richochet or shatter, and even penetrations dont do anything sometimes, meanwhile Pz III after Pz III is brewing up or bailing, and my wussy short gun 75mm Pz IV's are shooting smoke and getting waxed or just getting waxed! Now Im not saying this is unrealistic, and I dont want to get into another fricking debate about how the game is modelled etc etc etc I like it fine.

What I do want is tactics, what the hell should I be doing as Germans with these tanks?

Before you gimme the newbie answers like 'try for flank or rear shots' I already know this crap, I want to know some solid tactics (for any tank engagement actually) but specifically involved early war StuG IIIs, Pz IIIs, PZ IVs, with little room to maneuver and facing large amounts of Soviet armor.

Any suggestions?

p.s. if anybody wants me and vinny were discussing posting up an AAR on this clash of the titans...

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There are three flaws in CM engine, some of them mention often.

A) Ultimately limited battlefield.

German panzers cannot take full advantage of their superior mobility, and flank the enemy tanks from far away, unless you're playing a huge map with minuscule forces.

B) The horrors of borg spotting.

In real life, early Russian tanks had poor optics, vision slits and communication devices. This was likely to lead a half-blind amok run on the field; something that cannot be properly simulated in CM.

C) Lack of air cover.

Ok, this is just a small detail, but I wonder how many of the German tank officers were nutty enough to go head-to-head against Russian tanks without air support? A couple of well-aimed Stuka strikes were likely to make the panzer commander's day a lot easier.

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Yeah I got you there with the Assault guns, but unfortunately mein freunde, one has already been taken out (by a crappy command decision on my part) the other is engaging as we speak, but can 1, or even 2 if I hadnt lost the other take out the morass of Soviet T-34s and a single KV???

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I was able to pull a minor in that same scenario with them, but I believe my crack unit got 4 or 5 T-34's before the plane shot him up.

If he has that much left, I guess you might be in trouble as they will gang up on you. I set up ambushes in the little village with them and let my over-eager opponent ride up for the surprise.

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Originally posted by Sublime:

****Warning possible spoilers on B&T's Forgotten Front*****

Wow... well the battle continue to rages in my PBEM against Vinny... B&T's Forgotten Front (thanks B&T btw, excellent scenario) me as the Germans. With only 1 T-34 abandoned due to my 50mm defenses, and several light soviet tanks destroyed, things looked bad as there was still an unaccounted-for KV1 and lotsa T-34s. Then deliverance! the Panzers save the day! Or do they? In the next few turns, I manage to kill a few soviet tanks, but most shots richochet or shatter, and even penetrations dont do anything sometimes, meanwhile Pz III after Pz III is brewing up or bailing, and my wussy short gun 75mm Pz IV's are shooting smoke and getting waxed or just getting waxed! Now Im not saying this is unrealistic, and I dont want to get into another fricking debate about how the game is modelled etc etc etc I like it fine.

What I do want is tactics, what the hell should I be doing as Germans with these tanks?

Before you gimme the newbie answers like 'try for flank or rear shots' I already know this crap, I want to know some solid tactics (for any tank engagement actually) but specifically involved early war StuG IIIs, Pz IIIs, PZ IVs, with little room to maneuver and facing large amounts of Soviet armor.

Any suggestions?

p.s. if anybody wants me and vinny were discussing posting up an AAR on this clash of the titans...

The problem you had early in this one is that I was able to get superior numbers on you in each tank engagement.

when your panzers appeared, they came within view of my tanks piecemeal, and I was able to get 2 or 3 T-34's firing on a single panzer. I would say this probably accounted for most of your first panzer losses. also, your shells have been bouncing off of my frontal armor left and right. I have, for the most part, been able to keep all my tanks within command (as much is as humanly possibe in this game without radios)and I think that has helped a great deal.

my flanking plan with the T-26's worked, drew your STUGs into the open and allowed a T-34 to kill one with a sweet shot to the flank.

if you would have picked your battles a little better earlier, it would probably be much closer right now, but those couple panzers killed piecemeal early in the battle really helped level the playing field, and after that, I got good shots, some lucky bounces and had pretty good position overall.

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Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

C) Lack of air cover.

Ok, this is just a small detail, but I wonder how many of the German tank officers were nutty enough to go head-to-head against Russian tanks without air support? A couple of well-aimed Stuka strikes were likely to make the panzer commander's day a lot easier.

Err all of them? "Panzer Commanders" had to deal with things like KV engagements that lasted several days without stuka support. Remember 2300 T-34 were destroyed in 1941. Airpower in 1943 and 1944 when both sides had actual tank buster aircraft only accounted for 5% of tank losses during Kursk I don't see why this would be higher in 1941. Also this must be seen in the light that Panzer forces claim on avg 50%+ of the destroyed Soviet tanks. The Soviet Antitank arty seems to be the main claimant of destroyed Panzers.
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Yeah V, I screwed up pretty bad =/

That plane is crazy!

In the end I think I should have opened fire with my 50mm AT guns earlier, and sent my Pz's in en masse, and I should have ordered all tank crews to carry rabbit's feet...

What remains to be seen now is whether my STuG can hold on with what I've got.

Gotta admit I got lucky earlier in the game when you sent those T-26's in the village eh? One of my high points =D

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Originally posted by Sublime:

Yeah V, I screwed up pretty bad =/

That plane is crazy!

In the end I think I should have opened fire with my 50mm AT guns earlier, and sent my Pz's in en masse, and I should have ordered all tank crews to carry rabbit's feet...

What remains to be seen now is whether my STuG can hold on with what I've got.

Gotta admit I got lucky earlier in the game when you sent those T-26's in the village eh? One of my high points =D

yea, that was a sweet replay. I think you ambushed and knocked out 4 T-26's in about 1 1/2 minutes, with all infantry, as far as I could tell....

that was something to behold.

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a few things....you can use your Mk IV to throw smoke to where you want your assault guns to deploy....

or what you need to do is get the enemy close..

if you rush your PzIII into the town where the LOS

is shorter in general, you might be able to do some

thing there.... plus find where his light tanks are and blow em away....

C.

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Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

There are three flaws in CM engine, some of them mention often.

A) Ultimately limited battlefield.

German panzers cannot take full advantage of their superior mobility, and flank the enemy tanks from far away, unless you're playing a huge map with minuscule forces.

(... snip...)

Why do you think that it is "a flaw in CM engine"? You can create a huge map with small armor forces both in QB generator and scenario editor. So, the engine looks flexible enough. You can just play only "huge" maps with minuscule forcas, if it definition of a good game for you, and for your oponents.

Straif

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The vunerable spot on the T-34 is the turret front. Duel hull down, from medium to close range (depends on the gun and the T-34 model, 300m is always good, 500m is usually good).

You also want numbers and to use distraction if at all possible.

Button the T-34s with snipers or HMG fire from several hundred meters. They won't see you to respond, as long as you aren't close by. Buttoned and radioless, they get very long command delays and become sluggish, especially when trying to order movements with multiple waypoints. Then change where you are fighting them from, leave with without LOS to anything, and the like.

Avoid the KV, you can't penetrate it. (Unless you have an 88 FLAK lying around). Try to draw it past infantry (pioneers if you have them) using your tanks as bait. Infantry will kill anything inside of 30m, pretty effectively (pioneers very effectively). The difficulty is getting anyone to come that close to you. Going to them does not work. At least, the threat of this can keep the beastie at a respectful distance.

When the KV is the last thing left, you might be able to wreck it with "hail fire" if you have enough odds. Meaning like 4 to 1, and just hitting it so often you get "gun damage" or track hits. That is best done from long range, to minimize the losses to his replies and exploit your optics, rate of fire, etc.

The T-34s, draw in front of your guns if you can. 50mm PAK can KO them out to 1 km or more if you hit the turret (or flanks, "flat" enough). At ranges over 800m, they will have trouble spotting you back if you've buttoned them up.

Fire for one minute and then cease fire and "hide". If they have already seen you and shoot, your gun will come back off hide and reply. If they haven't, they will lose their spotting information. So fire a minute, hide a minute, fire a minute, etc.

To avoid dueling all of them at once with your tanks, use terrain as cover - crests and buildings are especially useful since short movements can create or remove LOS at your option. Make him come and find you.

The 50L42 Pz IIIs are the best tank to KO T-34s. They can hole the turret front of the early models out to 1 km, though ~800m is a better range. The cast turret models you want more like 600m with those. The 50L42 is also more accurate at range than the 75L24, and has a higher rate of fire.

Czech 37s are OK against the early models, again dueling hull down. 500m is the range you want. Against the cast turrets, 300m. Similar ranges are best for the 75L24. The Czech guns fire fast and are accurate - they will find the turret. But their behind armor effect isn't the best, and their AP loads are comparatively limited. So Pz IIIs are much better.

Pz III Hs are better than the other IIIs. Their hull front is strong enough to bounce the replies once the range gets long, which starts happening around 800m and has finished happening by 1 km. At those ranges, either side needs turret hits. With these, be sure to rotate the hull of your tank about 20 degrees from the direction of the duel - the side angle will significantly strengthen the front plates, and you won't expose the side hull with a moderate angle like that.

Note that the gun in the KV, and the earliest model T-34s, is an L31 rather than an L42. It is less accurate at range and has lower penetrating power. So the turned hull H is more survivable still, and Pz IV Es are worth using the hull turn idea. But only for hail fire with odds. They can still kill you if they hit your turrets, and you are just hoping for gun or track hits on them.

Of the towed guns, the 28mm squeeze bore is quite effective against the T-34s, because it can penetrate their turret etc out to 500m, and they won't be spotted banging away at that range. Their rate of fire is also very high. It often takes several turret hits to get one T-34, but if they can't see you to reply, you have time to accumulate them.

The 50mm PAK is also effective as already mentioned. 105mm howitzers will do the job too, but have a large fire signature and are easily spotted, so they aren't nearly as effective as the 50mm PAK. Somewhat less accurate too, and a lower rate of fire. But they will serve in a pinch.

88s are the uberweapon against Russian heavies. They will kill T-34s any plate, any range, and KVs to long distances. The longer the range the better, to avoid the replies. They will track you beyond "sound contact" to full ID around 1750m, so it is the very long, 2 km and upward shooting, that is completely one-sided for the 88.

Even the HE of the 88 is lethal to the T-34 from about 800m, so don't worry too much about running out of AP at long range. Also don't worry about a low listed initial hit chance, especially if they are stationary. It will climb dramatically, like a few percent becoming 25% of so, after the first few "ranging" rounds.

That is a bag of tactics for dealing with the Russian heavies early on. Not easy (the KVs in particular), but hardly impossible. Good luck.

[ February 17, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

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Wow thanks for all the replies all, especially JasonC and Coe.

Anyways, this is how it turned out:

I had 1 StuG III in the wheatfield, (crack unit) and 1 PZ III left on the outskirts of town (crack unit) my other Pz III that was alive unfortunately had gun damage. I managed to wax all the light T-60s, and with the StuG at long range I took out a couple more T-34s. The KV1 wasnt there - it was a continual misidentification that wasnt clarified until Iafter the battle. Another one of my infantry platoons fell, but the PzGrenadier reinforcements I received hadnt even fired a shot yet and were deployed near the church. Unfortunately for me, there were many T-34s left and my tanks had run out of AP ammo! Nevertheless, I continued my duels with HE ammo, achieving very little, but continuing to be lucky without any more armor losses and 3 air strikes specifically targetted at my tanks doing nothing! (2 of them were rockets and were dead on as well!) The time limit for the battle run out and I ended up salvaging this near certain major defeat to a draw. Of course V played extremely well, and in an operation my forces would have had to pull back from the village immediately, the same in real life if they wouldnt have withdrawn already! (1 plt of veteran PzGrenadiers, I Pz III crack with just HE ammo, 1 StuG crack with just HE ammo, vs a Soviet company (?) and several T-34s!)

So though it was satisfying to pull a draw pointwise, both me and my opponent know what the real out come of the battle was. It does pay to have a tenacious grip sometimes though.

Again thanks for the tips, and I've got some more questions:

Sewer movement - practical at all really?

IS-2 Tactics - I know they have slow reloads and slow turrets, etc.

Preferred Soviet assault gun of 1943?

Preferred Soviet assault gun of 1944?

thats all I can think of for now..

thanks again guys

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