Kiwi Joe Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I've played CMBO, CMBB and now CMAK for quite some time now. I've watched literally 1000's of shells strike tanks. And it seems to me that the vast majority of hits strike the turret of tanks. A moderate amount strike of the upper hull, and very few the lower hull. This goes for ALL amour no matter the relative size of these 3 sections. When I look at a tank the hull usually makes up the biggest part of it. So why all the turret hits in CM? Poor ole tanks like the PZ-IV (in real life very common) are hardly seen because of its 50mm front turret armour. It just dies sooooo easy. This can't be true to life or the germs would have surely beefed it up or not continued to produce 1000's of them right throughout the war! Whats up???? please help my little mind grapple with this problem :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 The threat comes from the turret, that's where you're going to aim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by Kiwi Joe: Poor ole tanks like the PZ-IV (in real life very common) are hardly seen because of its 50mm front turret armour. It just dies sooooo easy. This can't be true to life or the germs would have surely beefed it up or not continued to produce 1000's of them right throughout the war! In real life, the late PzIV models had an obvious advantage in better optics and range of engagement. I think turrets are hit more often, since they are the most exposed part of the tank. Although more bulky, the hull of the tank is nearly always partially concealed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Joe Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Well I would have thought you would aim for centre mass not a particular part of the tank, since actually scoring a hit is the most important thing. But I have no real world experience with that issue. I guess it depends on range also. Still it leaves the question: Why did the germans put the weakest front armour on the turret of the PZ-IV if turrets are the mostly likely place to be hit? I mean it was in production for several yrs, they could have up armoured it at some stage if there was a real need. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Maybe the traverse mechanisms, in later models manual only, weren't strong enough. Plus, it follows the all-or-nothing armor philosophy, if you've no armor, you'll have to hit something in the turret, or with something big. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 [ January 29, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 [ January 29, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Why are my replies disappearing? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I have been tabletop gameing in Micro Armour and 15mm for about 15 years using various rules out in the market. Here are some examples of tanks that could penetrate/KO front of PZIVH. T-34/76 could penetrate within 250 yards. M4/75 Sherman anywhere from 250 to 500 yards. M4/76,M10,M18,T34/85 anywhere from 1000 to 1500 yards. Ofcourse this doesnt include many factors such as: special ammo, angle of impact, armour hard points, armour weak points,etc. The PZIVH front Armour is as follows: Turretface-50mm, Mantle-80mm, Upper&Lower hull-80mm. I have also noticed in many of the game rules there were about 60% turret hits 40% hull hits. The PZIVH Total turret front exposure was about 60% mantle(80mm) 40%face(50mm). [ January 30, 2004, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 First to why all the turret hits. A turret front takes up a good deal more real-estate than one would expect. When we hear 'turret front' we usually think of just the gun mantlet but the turret front extends (obviously) from the turret rung up to the top of the cupola and usually the full hull width too. And in most engagements the hull is likely to be at least partially obscured by terrain, leaving the turret an even higher % of the overall front area. This is especially true when you compare the low PzIV hull to the broad-side-of-a-barn big Sherman hull. As to the thin PzIV turret front armor, armor upgrades to turret fronts seem to be a very tricky business. I can't think of many WWII tank types that got a decent turret front armor increase without a drastic redesign. Even the IS-2 couldn't substantially increase its turret front armor, though the turret front was pegged as the tank's most vulnerable spot! It all has to do with turret balance, gun balance, stress on the gun trunnions and turret race if the frontal gets beefed up much more than the original design specs. The PzIV was just that vulnerable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Does anyone know the percentages for hits against the front? My posts disappeared too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 The board is acting buggy. My post reappeared and then vanished again. But a good fudge would be to make the Panzer IV Mantlet 50mm and the turret face 80mm. This would offset the existing flaw without upsetting teh applecart (programming) too much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 The game models hit distribution for all tanks as being the same. So the Panzer IV 50mm turret face is 'bigger' than it is in actuality? A simple cure would be to make the mantlet 50mm and the turret face 80mm. While this is a fudge, it just creates a turret based re arrangement that models the Panzer IV turret protection better. Anyone know the percetage distribution for a hull down and non-hull down tank in CM? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Joe Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Please post replys to this thread in the Africa Korps froum thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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