Renaud Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 This was one of the panzer divisions formed shortly after barbarossa out of 2nd hand equipment, refitted Czech tanks, and cadres contributed by existing units (undoubtedly the people they wanted to get rid of). Going into action for the first time, with no combat zone training, at 0600 hours on March 20, 1942 in the Karch Peninsula of the Crimea, 1/204th Panzer Battalion of 204 Regiment suffered 40% tank losses (23% overall for the regiment) when it got lost in fog, made a wrong turn, and encountered a Russian Independent Tank Brigade counterattacking from the northwest. Essentially they were mangled by T34s and KV-1's. After this debacle, the 22nd Panzer division was pulled back for a rest and refit. It next saw action on May 7 in the same terrain against the same opponents during the successful conquest of the Karch Peninsula, assisted by 5 seriously understrength infantry divisions and a few hungarian divisions. I found the equipment for March 20 from the regimental commander, Oberst Koppenburg, referenced in "Panzertruppen": 1/204th Battalion HQ: 1x Pz IIf, 1x Pz 38(t), 1x SdKfz 251 1st (Lt) Company: 5x Pz IIf, 15x Pz 38(t) 2nd (Lt) Company: 5x Pz IIf, 15x Pz 38(t) 3rd (Med) Company 5x Pz IIf, 8x Pz IVf1 Now, my question is, what kind of tank replacements might the regiment get during the 6-week rest/refit period? They lost 20-22 of the above tanks on March 20. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Hmmm. This must be the famous "Eau de Cologne" division mentioned by Gottlob Bidermann in his book "In Deadly Combat", as it "came from the West and evaporated quickly." I had wondered which division it was. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Anywere from "none" to "up to full TOE". 6 weeks is sufficient for the latter, it is a question of what trains arrived with what aboard. Not a question one can answer with general practices. You'd need the actual shipments from a detailed unit history, or the daily tank strength reports. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 Shmavis: Probably correct! This unit began forming up near Paris starting September 41. If I had to guess, which I do, I'd say they were brought up to full TOE for the decisive May 7 offensive. It is highly unlikely that any AFV's were recovered during the March 20 battle, as the losses occured 4-5km inside soviet lines. The main question for me is what models of tank did they get based on production and delivery schedules for that period. This was the only armor in the Crimea and clearly had second hand equipment even for early 42, but on the other hand Stalin and Hitler had made a big propoganda war out of the Crimea. So perhaps the replacement units were more advanced like MkIVF2 'specials', or MkIIIJ's. But then, adding yet another distinct AFV model to the battalion would only exacerbate maintenance and supply issues. On the other hand, maybe they just got a trainload of 38t's. As a historical note, the 22nd was sent to the stalingrad front immediately after Kerch and subsequently destroyed in the battles along the Chir. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Ah, that makes it easy. The 22nd was indeed the weak German PD supporting the Rumanians north of Stalingrad. It is well known that they faced T-34s with nothing better than Pz 38s, even then. That's a large part of why they lost so rapidly. So no, they did not get IV specials or even III longs months earlier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Here is what I managed to find searching the net: Panzers on the Eastern Front Summer 1942 From Panzer Truppen Volume 1 by Thomas Jentz pages 236-239 By Steve "The Mad Russian" Overton http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/research_results.html?sku=117 22nd Panzer Division (1 July 1942) 28 Pz II 114 Pz 38(t) 12 Pz III Long (50L60) 11 Pz IV Short (75L24) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 I've been doing a lot of research on the web (I don't own many of the prime reference books!) and discovered a lot of interesting information. Seems that there is some disagreement about when the division was formed. One secondary source even states the 22nd was involved in the April 1940 occupation of Yugoslavia (attacking the villages of Nis and Natalinci, they encountered heavy 75mm field gun fire). I think this is probably a mistake and the 22nd really was formed in the Paris region post-barbarossa. It gets even weirder... Turns out the core of the division escaped annihilation in Nov 1942, making it across the Chir river thanks to the 1st Romanian AD, according to some sources. Others say the 22nd saved the 1st...clashing opinions here. In any case they were sent to the Belgorod area where they received some very unique armor, including captured KV-1 tanks modified in their field shops with Pz-IV cupolas and KwK 75L43 guns! They also received seven Sturminfanteriegeschütz 33 (150ig mounted on StugIII chassis). Only 24 were ever manufactured and these were the last surviving 7. The next month the unit was disbanded and all personnel/equipment combined with - get this - the survivors from the 15th Panzer which had escaped from North Africa. This new unit was the 15th PZG division, which fought in the defense of Cassino, causing massive casualties to the US 36th division trying to cross the Rapido river 4 miles south of Cassino. I finally discovered this: 22nd Panzer Division (1 July) 28 Pz II 114 Pz 38(t) 12 Pz III Long (50L60) 11 Pz IV Short (75L24) Panzers on the Eastern Front Summer 1942 From Panzer Truppen Volume 1 by Thomas Jentz pages 236-239 This information leads me to believe the 204th regiment received large numbers of Pz38t's (almost double their previous allotment of 60) as well as 12 PzIII 50L60's, all probably during that 6 week refit between March 20 and May 7 1942. The original establishment 16 PzIVF1's indicates that they lost at least 5 on March 20, yet they were not replaced, probably because they were no longer in production and the newer PzIV models went to higher priority units. The 12 new PzIII's would help explain their much better performance against T34/KV1 armor during the later May 7 operation. That and 6 weeks of in-the-line combat training. They fought off the counterattack on May 8 and bagged an entire russian corp in Kerch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 Ha, Glider. You posted just before me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 22, 2005 Author Share Posted October 22, 2005 Seems that only 41 tanks were operational by the time the 22nd was involved in the Nov 1942 Chir river battles. Another very weird thing - according to this, the division suffered from mouse-attack. Those secret soviet super-mice! I found this event referenced in many places, turns out the soviets even found out about it later and used it for propoganda purposes. Too weird. Almost forgot the weirdest thing: http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?_adv_prop=web&ei=UTF-8&vp=22nd+Panzer+Division&vp_vt=any&vd=all&vst=0&vf=all&vm=i&fl=0&n=10&u=www.zwire.com/news/newsstory.cfm%3Fnewsid%3D144865 38%26title%3D%253Cp%253ELocal+man+shares+memories+on+60th+anniversary+of+V-E+Day%26BRD%3D1197%26PAG%3D461%26CATNAME%3DTop+Stories%26CATEGORYID%3D410&w=%2222nd+panzer+division%22&d= eV1KO2FULhwD&icp=1&.intl=us Ray Zager, a veteran of the 71st US division, claims that his battalion accepted the surrender of the 22nd panzer division a few miles west of Vienna on May 8, 1945 (VE Day!). I figure this has to be some sort of mistake, but it's weird. [ October 21, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Renaud ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalgiris 1410 Posted October 22, 2005 Share Posted October 22, 2005 Renaud the 22 Panzer Division only ever fought along side German and Rumanian troops, never near any Honved Divisions. I second JasonC, the 22 PzD still only had Pz IIFs, Pz-38(t)s and PzIVFs (short barrelled referred to as Stummels) in terms of tanks while it constituted part of the XLVIII Panzer Korps supporting the Rumanian 3rd Army to the North-west of Stalingrad. However I have an autobiographical book called 'Through Hell for Hitler', by Henry Metelmann a driver of a Marder III, packing a Russian 76.2mm gun, who's unit was in the Crimea around this time. He is not particularly clear as to wheither this is a battalion or a company, although it certainly seems to have orrigionally been something independent. He is no expert and I believe he confuses either a knocked out 47mm gun armed PzJ I or possibly the hull of a decapitated Pz-38(t) from amoung the debris of an early 1941 battle as he passes by it in the Ukraine. Even after inspecting it he explains that it was not very comforting to see this husk that probably cost the lives of all its crew that was the same Panzer that he was a crew member of. These are fair sentiments to have except that I'm pretty sure that his Marder III is amoung the first batch ever sent East, but anyway. At some point his PanzerJaegar unit became a formal part of the 22nd Panzer Division in the Crimea, although I'm not precisely sure when this was. That said, it mostly seems to have performed anti-partisan duties and definately wasn't involved in the earlier March encounter by the 22nd PzD, although it appears to have become an asset of it by then as far as I can work out. Then again I could be mistaken and this addition to the 22nd PzD could have occurred with regards to include this Marder III equipt PanzerJaegar unit in lieu of actual Panzer replacements. It took part with the 22nd PzD during the Battle for the Kerch Peninsular in early May 1941 and stayed with the 22nd PzD when it arrived in front of the Don bend and joined the 6th Army in driving towards Stalingrad. It always stayed to the West of the Don River and ended up behind the 3rd Rumanian Army before the 19th of November. It became a part of Armee-Abteilung 'Hollidt', along with the remains of the 27th PzD and other Divisions and scratch units to cover the large gap and to replace the disintegreted Rumanian 3rd Army and then also the Italian 8th Army. Both of these Panzer Divisions were disintegreted themselves during the Winter of 1942-43. One thing to understand about them is that one of the Infantry Regiments of the 22nd PzD had been transferred to the 27th PzD in order to make up its Infantry component, which means that they both only had one each going into that Winter of their demise. Neither of these two Panzer Divisions were ever reconstituted in the manner of those that were destroyed in the Stalingrad Kessel during the same period and in the same area essentially. Metelmann provides an example of what seems to have happenned to those members of such Divisions in this area at the time and afterwards. He became a straggler behind Russian lines after the destruction of the anti-tank gun that he and his Panzerless crew had manned which was detatched in support of Rumanian frontline troops on the 19th of November 1941. The rest of his crew were killed when the ATG was taken out by what he describes as a 'mass' of Russian tanks. He evaded the Russians and meet another German staggler on the way to join up with an ad hoc German group before the end of November and served with it through out 1943-44 amid changes in its size and commanders. He is not great on much of the details, but at least this indecates just what happenned to the remnants of such defunct Divisions and units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalgiris 1410 Posted October 22, 2005 Share Posted October 22, 2005 Renaud the 22 Panzer Division only ever fought along side German and Rumanian troops, never near any Honved Divisions. I second JasonC, the 22 PzD still only had Pz IIFs, Pz-38(t)s and PzIVFs (short barrelled referred to as Stummels) in terms of tanks while it constituted part of the XLVIII Panzer Korps supporting the Rumanian 3rd Army to the North-west of Stalingrad. However I have an autobiographical book called 'Through Hell for Hitler', by Henry Metelmann a driver of a Marder III, packing a Russian 76.2mm gun, who's unit was in the Crimea around this time. He is not particularly clear as to wheither this is a battalion or a company, although it certainly seems to have orrigionally been something independent. He is no expert and I believe he confuses either a knocked out 47mm gun armed PzJ I or possibly the hull of a decapitated Pz-38(t) from amoung the debris of an early 1941 battle as he passes by it in the Ukraine. Even after inspecting it he explains that it was not very comforting to see this husk that probably cost the lives of all its crew that was the same Panzer that he was a crew member of. These are fair sentiments to have except that I'm pretty sure that his Marder III is amoung the first batch ever sent East, but anyway. At some point his PanzerJaegar unit became a formal part of the 22nd Panzer Division in the Crimea, although I'm not precisely sure when this was. That said, it mostly seems to have performed anti-partisan duties and definately wasn't involved in the earlier March encounter by the 22nd PzD, although it appears to have become an asset of it by then as far as I can work out. Then again I could be mistaken and this addition to the 22nd PzD could have occurred with regards to include this Marder III equipt PanzerJaegar unit in lieu of actual Panzer replacements. It took part with the 22nd PzD during the Battle for the Kerch Peninsular in early May 1941 and stayed with the 22nd PzD when it arrived in front of the Don bend and joined the 6th Army in driving towards Stalingrad. It always stayed to the West of the Don River and ended up behind the 3rd Rumanian Army before the 19th of November. It became a part of Armee-Abteilung 'Hollidt', along with the remains of the 27th PzD and other Divisions and scratch units to cover the large gap and to replace the disintegreted Rumanian 3rd Army and then also the Italian 8th Army. Both of these Panzer Divisions were disintegreted themselves during the Winter of 1942-43. One thing to understand about them is that one of the Infantry Regiments of the 22nd PzD had been transferred to the 27th PzD in order to make up its Infantry component, which means that they both only had one each going into that Winter of their demise. Neither of these two Panzer Divisions were ever reconstituted in the manner of those that were destroyed in the Stalingrad Kessel during the same period and in the same area essentially. Metelmann provides an example of what seems to have happenned to those members of such Divisions in this area at the time and afterwards. He became a straggler behind Russian lines after the destruction of the anti-tank gun that he and his Panzerless crew had manned which was detatched in support of Rumanian frontline troops on the 19th of November 1941. The rest of his crew were killed when the ATG was taken out by what he describes as a 'mass' of Russian tanks. He evaded the Russians and meet another German staggler on the way to join up with an ad hoc German group before the end of November and served with it through out 1943-44 amid changes in its size and commanders. He is not great on much of the details, but at least this indecates just what happenned to the remnants of such defunct Divisions and units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted October 22, 2005 Share Posted October 22, 2005 It was almost certainly the 11th Pz Division in Yugoslavia, attacking Nis. That 22nd seems to have been an ill-fated division. The story about mice damaging electrical cables insulation is well-known, I guess it must have really happened. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtcm Posted October 22, 2005 Share Posted October 22, 2005 Quick, some 22 PD scenarios for CMBB please ! fighting as Germans with Pz38s would certainly make for a change 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 22, 2005 Author Share Posted October 22, 2005 Yea jtcm, I want to make a scenario pack covering 4-6 22nd PD battles. That's what all this research is for! Glider, I found some claims that the panzer divisions were reorganized and renumbered after barbarossa and that many existing panzer division numbers were doubled. Which means the 11th in 1940 would become the 22nd in 1941! Weird stuff, but maybe just maybe the 11th became the cadre for the 22nd in sept 40 france. It's important in all this not to get confused with the 22nd air-landing division, which also served in Crimea under Manstein, and later was dropped onto Crete. Zalgiris, I'm familiar with Mettelman. As only a private, his knowledge is pretty vague but very interesting. I found a detailed account of the "Groddeck" brigade which was decisive in the May 42 Kerch Operation. It was composed of 2 Romanian motorised cavalry regiments with attached german units, one of which was the 560th independent Tank Hunter Company. This may well be Mettelmans Marder-equipped unit! Based on the July 1 Panzer strength reports, I think I can safely assume that part of the '42 March-May replacements included 12 PzIII 50L60 units, and a trainload of Czech Pz38t's as well, and that the 12 PzIII's would have been involved the May 7 Kerch Op. By Nov 42 they probably lost most or all of them, as you say. The 22nd Panzer's history is starting to gel, just a bit more research...thanks for the help. As an aside, I think the Pz38t is an 'OK' tank until mid 42 when T34's and KV's started reaching the russian tank brigades in meaningful numbers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 22, 2005 Author Share Posted October 22, 2005 The first of my 22nd PZD scenarios should be at the proving grounds in a few days. I will announce in the scenario forum. Until then, here are a few fun pictures for you! Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.P1 of 22nd Panzer Division of Wehrmacht. The turret has additional camouflage made of mud. Tactical number "614". Captured by Soviet troops in the end of March 1942* * 2/204 battalion had a few tanks get stuck trying to cross an antitank ditch around 0800 hours during the March 20 attack - this is probably one of them. Pz.Kpfw.IVAusf.F1, which belonged to the 22nd Panzer Division Wehrmach, on the maintenance and repairs base of the Crimean Front. April 1942. Pz. Kpfw. KV-I® mit 7.5cm KwK.Captured Soviet KV-1 rearmed with 75mm KwK 40 L/43 gun and mounted with PzKpfw IV commander's cupola. The 204th Tank Regiment/22nd Panzer Division, 1943, Belgorod region. Regenberger, Dr. Werner: Scheiben. Horst: Captured tanks under german flag. Russian battle tanks.Shiffer Military ------- I wonder if that thing ever saw combat... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 The first scenario is ready, at The Proving Grounds: 22nd PZD - Lost in the Fog This is the first in the series. Enjoy! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 Wow! It's amazing to see this topic go from discussion to a beta scenario within a thread. I'll head over to the PG and get back to you, Renaud. Thanks for your work! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Grey Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 Tried the first scenario vs. the AI, extreme FOW, standard setup, no bonusses. I won - but only because sometimes the AI is as stupid as artificial. Against a capable human opponent, the German player would stand no chance whatsoever - the difference in quality equipment is just too big. And in the test game, my crews needed about half a dozen shots to hit once... Anyway, a great scenario! Can´t wait to play the rest of them! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 Thanks guys! Really needs human vs. human. In the next scenario you get to ride in the command track of Oberst Koppenburg as he takes the rest of Regiment 204 in. Or toss a molotov in his track, if you swing that way. Any admins around? Could a nice admin move us to the scenario forum? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboy Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Hi Renaud, I Tried your scenario "22PzD Lost in the fog" today. I played German vs Russian A.I. and the result was draw.(57% axis 43% allied). Very balanced scenario, not too long(20+ turns). I was very interested to see on the battlefield my last Pz38t mod. Thanks Cheers Pat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted October 28, 2005 Author Share Posted October 28, 2005 Wow Patboy, I like that mod. I have a soft spot for that puny little Pz38. The crews really loved that vehicle (until they faced T34, etc.). It could travel 2-3 farther than a german AFV before needing routine maintenance. The engine and transmission were superbly engineered. Battle #2 in the series should be at proving grounds later today, plus 1.2beta of this one. I'm partial to smaller or at least quick-playing scenarios as well. Battle #2 is the largest i'll be likely to do for this series. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 Battle #3 is at the proving grounds: TrappenJagd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboy Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Originally posted by Renaud: Wow Patboy, I like that mod. I have a soft spot for that puny little Pz38. The crews really loved that vehicle (until they faced T34, etc.). It could travel 2-3 farther than a german AFV before needing routine maintenance. The engine and transmission were superbly engineered. Battle #2 in the series should be at proving grounds later today, plus 1.2beta of this one. I'm partial to smaller or at least quick-playing scenarios as well. Battle #2 is the largest i'll be likely to do for this series. Thanks for the 22 PZDiv mini campaign nice idea, I wanted to do that for the 16 PZDiv lost at Stalingrad and rebuilt later but no time to spend. Thanks for your comment about Pz 38t I like this small tank too, this mod was started since several months ago, and I would like to mod it as well as possible, that's why I never release it, but I give it some details more(flag and winterized apparence) I hope release it before XMAS. Cheers Pat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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