GeneralTaosChicken Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Okay I've just started playing CMBB, coming from playing too much SPWAW which I liked btw. Anyway, I've been noticing that my T34s just can't stand up against the Stug with a L/48 cannon. They can score hits but the shells just break off! True, this is frontal. I didn't expect the Stug of 1942 to be that tough. Is it the hardened armor or something? I tried an exercise with one platoon of stugs vs two platoons of t34s head on. The Stugs decimated them. Can someone tell me if this is pretty accurate historically? And if it is so, why doesn't the Stug cost more? thanks [ February 18, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: genaltaoschicken ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrii Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Cost is based on ease of prodcution, not quality. If you have rarity on, it's also based on how rare the unit is. The stug was easy and cheap to make (existing chassis, no turret) many were made (some models have -5% rarity!) and yet was quite good. It has curved armor, which explains the high numbers of ricochets and breakups. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Remember that with its low profile it is almost always effectivly hull down. Also don't forget that the 75/48 was the gun the Germans began giving their tanks to enable them to defeat the 34 and its bigger brothers. Used defensivly the Stug is a tough customer. For another view you might try taking that same setup and attacking with the Stugs. Slightly different story there. [ February 18, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: sgtgOOdy ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Originally posted by Tigrii: Cost is based on ease of prodcution, not quality. If you have rarity on, it's also based on how rare the unit is. The stug was easy and cheap to make (existing chassis, no turret) many were made (some models have -5% rarity!) and yet was quite good. It has curved armor, which explains the high numbers of ricochets and breakups. Sorry, but this is incorrect. Points to purchase a unit in CM have nothing to do with 'ease of production', but rather are simply an abstraction of how effective the unit is on the CM battlefield. Keep in mind that this point value attempts to reflect the overall value of a unit in against *all* possible opponents in *all* conditions, so an 'even point' matchup won't necessarily be an even fight. T-34s, for example, have a lot of excellent features that don't necessarily show up in a straight-on armor vs. armor slugfest vs. StuGs, like lower ground pressure, higher speed, better ammo load, etc. You 'pay' for these feature whether they're actually useful to you in the specifics of a certain scenario or not. Play the same matchup, but make it a maneuver battle in semi-closed terrain on wet ground, and see who wins. . . Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrii Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Originally posted by YankeeDog: Sorry, but this is incorrect. Points to purchase a unit in CM have nothing to do with 'ease of production', but rather are simply an abstraction of how effective the unit is on the CM battlefield.Sorry to mislead a newbie (and myself) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGONZOM Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I have documentation from three writers of amazing actions from STUGS, holding off a Division worth of infantry, companies of armor, sometimes with only a platoon, and somtiemes with just two stugs.. The stugs would place themselves such that they were supported on flanks and rear with ATGs. I believe there is a whole chapter on the stugs in one of james lucas books on taking on a division. The other is in "scorched earth" and i believe there is a whole book on these vehicles in the new biblography MadMatt Posted. Recently we are playtesting an attack/defense scenario against a platton of stugs and I jumped all around and up and down when I killed one head on with an SU-76i, they sure look beautiful all in flame... In the early years I have killed one from behind with a 57mm zis gun, and with t-34s from a right angle and behind... Hopefully scenario designers will give you some maneuver room, if not, your tanks must keep moving and hope they are not tracked by a whole stug platoon. :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralTaosChicken Posted February 19, 2003 Author Share Posted February 19, 2003 Thanks for the info. I know overall the T34 performs pretty good, but I was disheartened to see their shells having no perceivable effect on a Stugs frontal armor. After all, sometimes you have to deal with the front of an enemy and at I think 89 points per Stug and like 134 for a T34 it makes the Stug very attractive game wise. My experiment had 3 stugs moving toward 6 T34s, also moving, in flat terrain and clear weather. I was trying to maintain a balance and just have the tanks as a factor. Crews had equal ratings too. I also tried to use the T34s speed and out flank the Stugs, but without adequate cover even with twice the tanks the Stugs win easily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Tigrii - No problem. It's actually a misconception I held myself for a while. Basically, you can look at the point system as a tool for trying to ensure that QBs are at least somewhat close to balanced. They have nothing to do with anything else. As you correctly note, rarity 'score' is related to a units relative 'commoness' (at least in the CM-type engagement) and is designed to encourage 'realistic' force purchases. It would be kind of cool to have an alternate "Production Cost" point system in CM for Campaigns and masochistic grogs. Such a system would be unlikely to result in very balanced battles, though, and production cost is a really hard thing to quantify, anyway. You can look at things like man-hours to produce, raw materials used, training time for crew, etc., but the problem is that various resources were more or less scarce for different combatants at different points in the war. For example, early in the war, Germany had plenty of copper. Late in the war, it had virtually none. In contrast, to my knowledge, the Russians never had a problem with copper supply. Still, I'm not sure it would be any harder to create a "production cost" point system than it is to create a "unit effectiveness" one. After all, neither is going to work for all situations at all times. Just try using a Ferdinand in a nighttime Meeting Engagement in the mud if you have any doubt as to whether the current point system applies to a unit's usefulness in for all situations. One can make a strong argument that "Productions Cost Points" should be used for the casualty point tally in determining victor, and "Usefulness Points" for purchases in a QB. If transport units (trucks & c.) cost twice as much in "Casualty Points" as they did in "Effectiveness Points" (since much to these units' usefulness lies outside the scope of CM), I have a feeling that players would probably (realistically) be considerably more careful with them. I know there are a few situations where QB 'purchase' points do not equal 'casualty' points right now. The ones I know of are Arty FOs and Battalion HQs. There may be others. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 The Stug has 80mm of frontal armour, mostly sloped. The 76.2mm gun of the T34 can't get through that sort of thickness unless they're firing at a flat, vertical plate from less than 100m. Or they have tungsten shells. Plus the Stugs have a rather limited ammo supply when compared to turreted tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Chung Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I've read that StuG crews frequently stacked more ammo onto the floor. This increased the overall ammo load to about 90 shells, I believe. Unfortunately this is not modelled on CMBB. It would be great though. Danny 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 The weakness of Stugs: 1. Stugs are terrible anti-infantry AFVs, low HE and MG ammo loadouts. 2. Look Stug up in the dictionary under "Bog" 3. No turret (which makes #1 & #2 worse) The weaknesses are incorporated into the price of the Stug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshade Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Don't attack them head to head, use the turret you have and they haven't. In a set piece head to head they will beat you that's their best circumstance. If you meet them manouvering in a town (or manouvering at all!) you will slaughter them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Especially with as slow as things turn in CMBB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coe Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Here's one, so I had a veteran StuG IIIB hiding behind a house....and a buttoned up KV-1 comes up the road and by it, in fact it stops right in front of the StuG and the StuG lets him have it at I believe it was 10 meters No damage...it was a flank shot too. the KV turns and polishes him off actually have you noticed, point blank shots sometimes are less effective than shots that are lets say from 200 yards out? any reason why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgivney Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Originally posted by Keef: I've read that StuG crews frequently stacked more ammo onto the floor. This increased the overall ammo load to about 90 shells, I believe. Unfortunately this is not modelled on CMBB. It would be great though. Danny Say hello to catastrophic explosion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Originally posted by coe: Here's one, so I had a veteran StuG IIIB hiding behind a house....and a buttoned up KV-1 comes up the road and by it, in fact it stops right in front of the StuG and the StuG lets him have it at I believe it was 10 meters No damage...it was a flank shot too. the KV turns and polishes him off actually have you noticed, point blank shots sometimes are less effective than shots that are lets say from 200 yards out? any reason why? Possibly because the IIIB is equiped with the short 75/L24 gun? Which has zero chance of penetrating a KV's armor at any angle or range with AP ammo? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coe Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I know the StugIIIB didn't really have a chance... I wonder though if in real life the Stug would have aimed for the tracks, tried to immobilize the KV and then reverse around the house to get the hell outta there (and out of direct sight).... C. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Originally posted by coe: I know the StugIIIB didn't really have a chance... I wonder though if in real life the Stug would have aimed for the tracks, tried to immobilize the KV and then reverse around the house to get the hell outta there (and out of direct sight).... Since the WW2 tanks weren't exactly the pinnacle of maneuverability, I'd wager no tank crew was insane enough to allow an invicible enemy armor at point blank tange just so they could attempt to immobilize it. If it was me, I'd rather spend the time shelling the enemy infantry, so my fellow foot troops could attempt to roll the tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Originally posted by coe: Here's one, so I had a veteran StuG IIIB hiding behind a house....and a buttoned up KV-1 comes up the road and by it, in fact it stops right in front of the StuG and the StuG lets him have it at I believe it was 10 meters No damage...it was a flank shot too. the KV turns and polishes him off actually have you noticed, point blank shots sometimes are less effective than shots that are lets say from 200 yards out? any reason why? The metal of the shell is not strong enough to withstand the kinetic energy of a point-blank shot and shatters. You will notice that some T-34 models have this problem. The penetration figures for close range are lower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Originally posted by xerxes: The weakness of Stugs: 1. Stugs are terrible anti-infantry AFVs, low HE and MG ammo loadouts.Unfortunately CM only have the TD versions of StuG III F/G represented, and the default ammo mix is fixed (with a minimum of randomness). There were StuGs in TD battalions, as represented in CM, and in assault gun battalions, sporting a higher percentage of HE. The MG should be used for close defense only, which it isn't. Therefore the ammo doesn't seem to be enough. Cheers Olle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coe Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 actually I was kinda surprised, the KV-1 kinda came up from out of sight (in a depression) round a bend and came clunking down the road...my Stug was already behind a building and since the building was clear on both sides, it really had no where to go when the KV-1 came up....it was scary....... Conan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Remember that most of the tanks in the game have a crap rotation speed: take advantage of this by buzzing past the turrets of enemy tanks. You might not have a chance to take a shot, but you're likely to succeed in hightailing for safety behind the ledges / tree lines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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