Bruceov Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 When attacking, I have difficulty scouting sucessfully. Most of my scout units get killed. How do you scout successfully? How do you discover a seam? Do you complete scouting before you move your attack units? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 For starters, a second unit should be behind the killed scout to spot whatever kills it. In CMBB terms you want a unit with binoculars for that. Vehicles with long-range optics also work well if you dare to expose them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 one way to raise the odds of a scout surviving first contact is to give it plenty of overwatch firepower. this means having a 'firebase' behind the most forward unit (scout); a 'firebase' which can also see - and fire upon - whatever the scout can see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruceov Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 so your main units are close behind the scout 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 I usually send a tank hunter team or half squad ahead of a platoon as a rule. The platoon is in a body of trees for example. theres 45m of open ground, then another clump of trees. I get the platoon along the edge of the first treeline facing the second clump, and send out the tank hunter team or half squad, if they make it and move through the woods fine, i advance the main body. This stops you from exposing large numbers of men to a minefield thats suddenly discovered or a well laid ambush.. its not foolproof though, but a good idea to start with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Sublime: I usually send a tank hunter team or half squad ahead of a platoon as a rule. The platoon is in a body of trees for example. theres 45m of open ground, then another clump of trees. I get the platoon along the edge of the first treeline facing the second clump, and send out the tank hunter team or half squad, if they make it and move through the woods fine, i advance the main body. This stops you from exposing large numbers of men to a minefield thats suddenly discovered or a well laid ambush.. its not foolproof though, but a good idea to start with. Yes. Bruceov, remember to ALWAYS have a firebase available when you advance with a force you consider important to your plan, that is, most of the time. Your forces need to have a LOS to your scout, sending them romping 300 meters ahead in some woods is scout wasted. Be ready to sacrifice your scout, if they encounter a strong enemy they are done for support or not. A platoon comes after roughly one or two minutes after a scout has passed the terrain. If the scout gets shot this will, enemy spotted or not, give a very good general idea of the enemy position. If you still desperately need to advance due to time constraints, utilize your firebase to rake the suspected enemy positions with area fire. A decent firegbase has MGs ready to open up, mortars and possibly a gun or a tank going madminute with HE and multiple MGs. Keep firing untill your platoon/company/whatever reaches the destination, if you enemy opens fire on the way your firebase will suppress it somewhat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 remember also, when you split a squad, to send scouting the half-squad without LMG...save the one with LMG for the firebase...obviously if the squad has only one LMG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 I decided to further illustrate the fine art of scouting. To that effect I created a scenario for the purpose of working as an example on how to conduct a proper recon of a possible enemy position, without futile waste of your troops and how to finally advance and overcome the position utilizing the clever recon. Then I took several screenshots of the mission. Below is the basic scenario. A Soviet force has been ordered to capture a heavily wooded hill seen below! Alas, unbeknownst to the Soviets, a platoon of Krauts is entrenched in the woods supported by three HMG42s. A potentially fatal predicament! Here you can see the starting point of the infantry about to seize the hillock, as well as an important terrain feature: an elevation with decent LOS to the "Objective." Note: the smudged blue text claims that a platoon of German infantry is fortified at the objective with HMG42 support. Also note that the claim is true. [ June 19, 2003, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 We start with how to not properly scout the objective. Observe the possible close range firebase for this recon mission engaging in a political discussion. [ June 19, 2003, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 You can imagine why Krupov and his comrade ended up quite dead. However with a close firebase composed of his detachment, weapons at ready, the situation takes a change for the better! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 For a textbook reconnaisance mission we need a real firebase to react to any OPFOR presence. If you are not ready to engage the enemy when contact is made, why scout at all. A firebase on the elevation: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Krupov hugs the ground, Popov's two platoons open fire and it is determined at least three different infantry contacts are present on the woods visible to the detachment. Popov and the firebase at the elevation do not spare ammunition. Death to the fascist pig. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 There is a reason to suspect the enemy discovered by Krupov are somewhat suppressed at this point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 The recon and capture of the first woods at the hillock is a success. As an added bonus more mission critical information is available to our intrepid Bolsheviks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Windsor Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Nice work, Ligur. Amusing and educational - a rare combination. Would you mind if I preserved that on my website to save it being lost in the threads of time? Yours, Teddy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 It is determined that "Objective" is entrenched. There is every reason to believe that the trenches are occupied, if not by more troops at least the picket line which retreated. Only one of the three spotted infantry units is confirmed killed. A few minutes are spent moving a group of support units into position with a better LOS to the "Objective" itself. After some minutes of shelling and area fire raking the objective to suppress the OPFOR at "Objective" Popov orders an assault. PLEASE NOTE: Yes, the Soviet 82mm mortars are shelling an area assaulted by their comrades. However the suppression level to the enemy achieved by this far surpasses any harm done by "blue on blue" casualties taken when the objective is stormed. When the assault reaches its destination the shelling stops, i.e. friendly troops are only subject to shelling by own units for some 30 seconds. [ June 19, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Windsor Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Bloody hell - there's more :mad: :mad: :mad: Teddy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 The suppressed enemy breaks and routs quickly. Unable to fire back when Popov's detachment surges forward they are immediately overrun. NOTE: When a similar assault was conducted without the 3 minute prep fire (yes, even a prep fire with such lowly weapons as the 82mm, Maxim and a 45mm gun can suppress an entrenched OPFOR position enough for that critical moment), Popov's detachment was routed as a whole. Every single unit ordered to advance was either eliminated, broken or in a state of panic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 The casualties taken by both sides, Axis on the left side: It took 5 minutes from the start to clear the first woods. It took roughly 10 minutes after that to launch the assault on the "Objective" so not much ground was made at 20 minutes all in all. The Soviet force (all regular). - Popov's detachment: Two platoons of rifle -42 - Firebase: a Soviet captain, 2 x 82mm mortar, 2 x Maxim HMG, a DP LMG and a 45mm AT-gun. The German force (all regular). - Platoon of rifle -41 - 3 X HMG42 - 4 x trench In this example the Soviets went pretty happy with ammunition which is not always possible, neither did the Soviet force take any fire from the flanks, also this was against the AI, also you almost never get such a fine firebase for an assault etc. etc. so consider this a humorous textbook example. I only mean to illustrate the points made in this thread, and to Popov's credit I only played this scenario just once to get what I wanted. [ June 19, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Edward Windsor: Nice work, Ligur. Amusing and educational - a rare combination. Would you mind if I preserved that on my website to save it being lost in the threads of time? Yours, Teddy By all means friend And thanks for the compliment! PS. sorry for any 56k modemers if I ruined the thread for you [ June 19, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Ligur ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Ligur, That was great!! (Even with my 56k modem.) Now, if BFC will include that, with full color pictures, in their next manual..... Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Ligur, Great work! Laughter & real education as well. Loved it. GAJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 That was a very nicely done example of supporting units (both for spotting and fire support). One detail. You're using advance for your scout, if you use MTC w/ a covered arc you'll avoid the scout pushing on into a wall of bullets and getting creamed. Move is also a good option for basic scouting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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