Could Russia have won with Canadians?

[Sergei]

What if Churchill had sent all the Canadian divisions to help Soviets in their winter offensive of 1941-42? My idea is, Canucks are accustomed to winter conditions (I mean you can't use them in jungle or desert, now can you? they'd melt) and so could have helped in routing the fast-standing German divisions, after which nothing would have stopped them from marching to Berlin. The Commonwealth sent a lot of material to Uncle Joe, so why not Canadians? They could also have been deported there through Siberia, so it wouldn't have affected Murmansk shippings. How many divisions do you think Canada could have mustered at that point?

[Richie]

...Oh dear...

[Brent Pollock]

Nope...sorry...you're forgetting the fuel mismatch:

- our lads made it through Canadian winters mainly on Rum and Rye;

- Soviets run on vodka.

Besides, we'd had enough of that fighting the Reds right after WWI.

Also, the guys from BC and Northern Ontario/Quebec were quite used to dense forest...and bugs...while the Saskatchewan lads knew all about desert.

[ June 27, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Brent Pollock ]

[Brent Pollock]

...and I loved that "deported there through Siberia" bit - that was funny..."deported"...hilarious...an excellent example of "lost in translation"...made us sound like the first wave of British "immigrants" into Australia.

[Slappy]

Hi Mom.

[David I]

Sergi,

The Soviets didn't want our bomber pilots to land in Soviet territory! How much less would Stalin want a Corps or more of Capitalistic, Canuks on his soil?!

DavidI

[Tero]

Originally posted by David I:

Sergi,

The Soviets didn't want our bomber pilots to land in Soviet territory! How much less would Stalin want a Corps or more of Capitalistic, Canuks on his soil?!

DavidI

Well, Stalin had already killed off most mature male immigrant Communists from Canada and USA by 1938. Mind you, he did let the British pilots to operate in Soviet soil early on.

Manpower was not in his to-worry list. It was specialist skills and advanced hardware.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

...and I loved that "deported there through Siberia" bit - that was funny..."deported"...hilarious...an excellent example of "lost in translation"...made us sound like the first wave of British "immigrants" into Australia.

Don't you dare to even try patronizing me, Mister! My other favourite "what if" is, what if the Tsar hadn't sold Alaska but instead traded the whole Canuckia for letting the Brits have Afghanistan all for themselves. Well, that didn't happen, but what is possible however is that Churchill, trying to appease USA, would have agreed to endorse the Manson Doctrine by pulling out of America, meaning the dismantling of Canada and moving the colonists to somewhere else (like Ireland but in this case maybe Russia - Russians drink tea anyways, as do Brits, and Canadians are Brits so, as a matter of fact, all Canadians are Russians). You may now apologize for your ignorance.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Tero:

Manpower was not in his to-worry list. It was specialist skills and advanced hardware.

Still, having a handful of decently trained, led and equipped divisions at the right time could have been helpful (especially after Soviet politruks would have taken care of the less reliable men and officers). Not that you could expect too much from Canadians yet in 1941, but at least they don't have that order delay which Russians have. I think not having that extra order delay could have helped alot in many cases, allowing the Germans less time for reacting.

[Holman]

I would expect some logistical difficulties. Most Canadian divisions moved by dog-sled, but the Russians had already lost a good deal of their trained military canines to mine-dog attrition. Would Stalin really be so ready to part with his remaining wolfhounds just to pull Eskimo troops from Ontario? I think I've read that he was hoarding his remaining mine dogs for the big Soviet offensive at Kursk anyway.

BTS please fix or do somefink!

[warspite]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Don't you dare to even try patronizing me, Mister! My other favourite "what if" is, what if the Tsar hadn't sold Alaska but instead traded the whole Canuckia for letting the Brits have Afghanistan all for themselves. Well, that didn't happen, but what is possible however is that Churchill, trying to appease USA, would have agreed to endorse the Manson Doctrine by pulling out of America, meaning the dismantling of Canada and moving the colonists to somewhere else (like Ireland but in this case maybe Russia - Russians drink tea anyways, as do Brits, and Canadians are Brits so, as a matter of fact, all Canadians are Russians). You may now apologize for your ignorance. [/QB]

Er... Canada was already independent by the time World War II came around. They weren't colonists any more. They were Canadians. And given how well Canadians fought in both World Wars, let me extend my sympathies in advance to whoever tries to dislodge them from their frozen wastes.

[Corvidae]

frozen wasteland my arse,, its friggin hot here in summer, with mosquitos the size of volkswagons, and blackflys that need landing lights, , also stalin had diddly squat to fear from us canadians politicaly, our distain for political extreemism of any sort is well known, our own comunist party was and still is a moderate and mellow organization,

[_Axe_]

Originally posted by warspite:

Er... Canada was already independent by the time World War II came around. They weren't colonists any more. They were Canadians. And given how well Canadians fought in both World Wars, let me extend my sympathies in advance to whoever tries to dislodge them from their frozen wastes.

And a drink for the junior member from.....well, wherever you're from.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by warspite:

Er... Canada was already independent by the time World War II came around.

Oh, sure... I might be stupid, but I'm not an idjot! Tell me, if Canada was independent at some point, why isn't she so anymore? Hmmh?

[Richie]

Capitalism... ?

[warspite]

Didn't Canada say "fat chance" to the US as recently as last year, over joining the war in Iraq?

[Sergei]

But Michael Dorosh fully endorses the war, which is more significant, him being the most influential Canadian on this board.

[chashm]

oh my

[ErrantRecce1]

Sergei;

I don't think the Canadians would have had any appreciable effect on the outcome in 41 -42. After years ( 15 or so) of neglect ( a whole lot like today) Our forces were really only getting trained up in England. What was onhand on the continent, that we could have sent to Russia would have been but a rock in the flood against the Wermacht, and prolly would have been crushed rather quickly trying to slow up the Germans while Uncle Jo could have saved himself some good Party members for a week later.

And so far as Candians running on Rye, I am sure there is a conversion kit out there that they could have used to convert anyone going to Russia to run on whatever is available on the ground, I know that when I was in Yugo, we were even drinking the Raki. Canadians are the ultimate in environmentally friendly units, we can run on whatever you give us, so long as it is at least 200 proof.

Also Sergei, so far a supporting the war; It was a good war on paper, til Haliburton got ahold of it. Think about it. getting rid of Saddam Hussien, who is a runner up, in the " killed the highest number of his/ her own countryfolk".

He was even more dangerous to Iraqis than the Iranian Army, or air force, or even the Iranian Navy.

He needed to be removed, but that is only by a North American Perspective, the only mass murderers we tolerate on this side of the pond have to be military Commanders, like Montcalm, or Lee, or Haig. I know on your side of the pond, a couple of pits with thousands of human bodies can be found on almost every intersection.. but we're a little naive around here

[ June 28, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: ErrantRecce1 ]

[Brent Pollock]

..."at least 200 proof"...how to you get greater than 200 proof?

[ErrantRecce1]

I'm not sure. But the Raki I had while in Yugo was stronger, it was strong enough that i put a litre's worth into a plastic watter bottle and then wrapped the waterbottle thick with gun tape to pad it for return to Canada to show off to friends. Three weeks later, I took the bottle out of storage and went to open it, the Raki ( think local moonshine gone OJ crazy) had disolved all the plastic from the walls, it was only the gun tape holding it in. That is what we used to have straight. There were no bleeding ulcers in my company, only gaping holes in soldiers stomachs.

[Vossiewulf]

Originally posted by Corvidae:

frozen wasteland my arse,, its friggin hot here in summer, with mosquitos the size of volkswagons, and blackflys that need landing lights

Those are FLIES? Last time I was there I thought the blood-sucking swarms surrounding me were vampire bats. Big ones.

[Vossiewulf]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

..."at least 200 proof"...how to you get greater than 200 proof?

You go out and drink with Finns. They make this homebrew stuff that tastes like licorice-flavored gasoline, and it defies the laws of physics by being at least 400 proof. Drinking with Finns=certain death, or worse, living to experience the hangover.

[Bartokomus]

as one of six people to ever serve in the Canadian Navy I resent that offshore bombardment wasn't suggested as a viable use of Canadiana power. Surely the 1960's era 40mm Bofors we were refitted with on the way to the first Gulf War to hit Exocet missles (at Mach 2) with would have been equally effective at bombarding Berlin or maybe even as far in as Vienna...

[Little_Black_Devil]

Well, just my two cents - but I think Stalin preferred a second front to relieve some of the preassure off of his own troops. The presence of Canadian troops on the Eastern Front would have been more of a headache to both the Canadians and the Soviets, then any true benefit they could seriously be considered to offer.

Also keep in mind - that for the Soviets, this was the "Great Patriotic War" - which includes all sorts of overt and inferred ideological messages. Foreign troops fighting for the "motherland" doesn't go hand in hand with this message [to the Soviet people].

In the grand scheme of things, the numbers which Canada could have offered the Soviet Union were, by comparrison on existing Soviet units, and Soviet units then being trained and brought into service - a mere drop in the bucket.

In addition, the difference in equipment would have certainly led to some logistical challenges, but not as many as most would assume I would guess.

I make this assumption simply because the Soviets already had many different types of Western Allied tanks, weapons, equipment and munitions through lend lease, however it makes little sense to send them western weapons, equipment and supplies if they are simply going to end up "lending" it back to the Canadians.

In my own opinion, I don't think the prospect of sending Canadian troops to the Soviet Union was ever seriously considered, however - it wouldn't surprise me if plans for a raid or invasion of Denmark were seriously considered.

As a side note;

For those that assume all of our troops would have been/are more acclimatized to cold weather, I suggest you read a bit more about the Canadian climate, and see where our largest populations are (and always have been) centered. I think you'll find that by and large - that numerically Canadians are far less some sort of "Siberian Equivilent" and more like our neighbors down in New York or Chicago.

Not all of our boys by far are used to the hardships of places like "Portage & Main" in Winnipeg Manitoba.