Take your seats, the virtual classroom is in session!

[Cpl Carrot]

One thing to remember with MTC, is to make use of the new cover arc. With one of these on the unit won't stop when he sees a tanks 2 k's away but will keep going until he sees soemthing inside the arc.

Another 2 cents

Cpl Carrot

[Iberian]

Originally posted by JasonC:

If everyone just uses "move to contact", your main body will go to ground unambushed, it is true.

Hmmm... my undestanding of MTC is different from what I deduce by reading here. If everyone is using MTC, they will go to ground, or stop, when they have LOS with the unit that ambushed your point team, not when your point team is ambushed as I undestand from reading the above.

So, am I wrong undestanding than in this particular tactical example, Move to Contact would give you more advantage that the simple Move that was suggested?

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Iberian:

If everyone is using MTC, they will go to ground, or stop, when they have LOS with the unit that ambushed your point team

That's how it works for me, and that's what I want- whatever threat may be encountered, I want *all* my guys hopefully in contact, but *no closer*. Next turn I can look at the threat and figure out what to do...

I've read that last paragraph by JasonC quite a few times, and... I really don't get it at all. "expecting to lose" wha...?!? I just haven't been sure of how to respond; not sure what it is I'm not understanding there, hoping sleep would bring epiphany or something... But no, when I wake up I just need coffee.

Eden

[ScottDT]

Sorry about the delay in posting the next pic, but it was a busy work week capped off by another head cold---no doubt caught on the East Front!

Anyway, here is the next picture displaying the scene at Turn 10:

As can been seen, we are making some progress. We have taken light casualties across the board, almost exlusively from arty and AT-gun fire. My right flank, in particular, took heavy arty fire which surprised me as I thought they had good concealment moving through that patch of trees. Likewise, my reserve was forced to relocate because of incomimg arty---again surprising since they have been motionless and undercover since turn 1! Obviously a villager must be relaying info to the enemy!

My Hotchkiss tank was killed by an AT-gun (I now know there are two on that hilltop)and my PSW is permanently bogged leaving me one tank---which will remain motionless until those guns are knocked out---hopefully in the next 60 seconds as I have 20 105mm rounds on the way.

The enemy infantry in the back-center of the battlefield has taken a good pounding by my infantry, forcing a few units to retreat.

My plan remains the same, keep advancing, bring up my reserve on the right flank (the relocation forced my hand)and keep pushing the enemy back. I think once he runs out of arty and we kill those AT guns, we should make progress.

Oh yes, I did get a friendly airstrike which did little.

I'll try to get at least one picture in a week at a pace of every 10 turns or sooner if something interesting happens.

[ScottDT]

Originally posted by Sidewinder:

try and get an 81mm into los (or commanding hq to spot) and call fire in on the gun with that, if possible.

No luck with the 81mm, but 20 rounds of 105mm on the way! Boom! :eek:

[ScottDT]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

Great idea!!

I've prodded the forum a number of times for more voyeuristic social events...

<<<I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I get results: CM needs a live audience capability like TACOPS!>>>

How about posting your cme files? Not much I can really get from the pic:

<<<How can I do that?>>>

Three Red Lines: Well, those lines look good, but what do they really mean? IE, although you've labelled three separate Kampfgruppen (is that the plural?), in reality you still have a uniform distribution of troops across the front... Is it more than a symbolic distinction? I don't see three separate tactical approaches being taken, as you're latest post seems to verify. Which is fine, really, as the map could be said to have a wide approach, but why the terminology?

<<<The three red arrows are just to point out the general axis of advance for my KGs---nothing more. Also, the tip of each arrow points to the victory flags which can be hard to see.>>>

Compared to me, (and I admit to not being a grog- shoot me down if this is ignorant, but you asked), I see that you are confident in your motion across the field, whereas I always consider myself, (or I try to pretend to consider myself), in hostile territory at the beginning. Or more accurately, "at any time" territory, and I would already be using overwatch leap & bounds by the second half of your paths there. Probably just anal retentive of me, but it seems more realistic that way.

<<<Your way is more realistic. However, I find the gamey way more efficient. In CM3, it might be a nice idea to have variable-sized set-up zones for the two sides, that way the players would never be able to guess how close the enemy actually was.>>>

Another difference I notice is that I would probably have sent that SS (I would have bought a few) a little bit ahead of the pack as recon, with Move To Contact/Hide through woods. They're usually pretty safe that way, and the only way to catch a TC with an SS is before they're buttoned up, so...

Similar reasoning for Pioneers; they make me think short range, especially those satchels- how nice it would be to have them at the front, with some greater chance of using their stuff. In the case of playing SP, the defending AI often has the tendency to send it's armor out from good defensive positions, right past your waiting pios, but then that's really a gamey tactic, so let's not go there. Still, better a Rifle platoon as Reserve- bring to contact sooner/farther.

<<<All good points that bear further examination. I particularly like using the Pioneers as an ambush force for armored vehicles---never considered that before.>>>

For a force of that size I would have traded some men for more arty.

<<<As I find arty a tad difficult to use correctly, I rather have men than shells. Furthermore, you need men to occupy victory locations---all the shells in the world won't help you there. No, in an attack, I rather have extra infantry than arty.>>>

Notice that the map is possibly a bit unfair to the AI- you have rich cover on the whole front until you are standing right in front of the flag! It will take eons, but you can jump from house to house...

<<<Exactly what I was planning.>>>

Two or three HTs with the infinite HE capacity would have been ideal for a couple of cases: one, you find enemy in buildings- area fire & forget two, you need the cover of a downed building smoke cloud to advance.

If enemy is rich in armor, say a bazillion light tanks, the buildings may be tough for you. If rich in ATGs, you will hopefully suck them out of hiding when he sees your many eyes taking cover in many buildings, IFF you have not already teased him with your own light armor first.

<<<So far the AI has not been shy about using his AT-guns.>>>

My vote, (rhetorically, I mean), is the same as always- armor is not called until the infantry run into something they cannot surpasse on their own. Might be especially suitable here, since you have such a good chance of discovering all ATG assets on foot.

<<<I hate having my armor sit around, seems like such a waste. But in a situation like this which has the enemy AT-guns in an ideal LOS position, I cannot risk using my last tank until they are knocked out. Then my armor can be used like mobile arty to clean up the battlefield---which is also another reason why I don't buy too much arty.>>>

It's getting late- am I making any sense? Or just two cents?

Eden

That was a great post with great ideas/suggestions! Thanks!

[ScottDT]

Originally posted by Fionn:

Wide front deployments CAN work. They need a bit of finesse at times but they certainly can work.

I regularly do things this way against humans ( although I'd put FAR less up front in the first echelon and have very strong 2nd and 3rd echelons following up some distance from the 1st wave ( IOW a classic Soviet "wave" attack) with a great deal of success. Don't bother playing against the AI much... I think it teaches you bad habits.

What strenght would you put up front?

True about the AI. While CM's AI is one of the best created for a wargame, it still can be pretty dumb at times. Its biggest flaw is how it picks one plan of attack and sticks with it no matter what. I once eliminated an entire enemy company (in CMBO) because the AI kept feeding fresh troops into a patch of woods zeroed in by my mortars, arty, and infantry. It was like a recreation of Fredricksburg!

[ScottDT]

Originally posted by Cogust:

Eden,

Yeah I know that you can't trust the average internet user any farther than you can throw him, but my point was that you could participate in the discussion on BOTH sides and follow the action from both sides of the game.

It might be pointed out that this is flawed from the intelligence aspect as both sides would know where each side is and so on, but the aim is getting new players to see what other players are thinking.

Your idea of battling a veteran player that won't peek is very interesting though, any volunteers? I will try to get hold of a veteran player willing to do this and I will start my own thread later on when I'm ready to go.

Sorry for hijacking the thread somewhat, please continue with the lesson.

You are not hijacking the lesson. These are they types of discussions I hoped would result from my post.

Clearly, CM would benefit from a live audience option. And more clearly, CM players would enjoy and frequently use such an option. I hope Big Time/Battlefront will include such a feature in the next version of CM. It could raise CM strategy and tactics to a whole new level. Likewise, it would allow entertaining tourneys that could be watched "live" much like what is happening in the world of chess. This would increase publicity for CM in particular and wargaming in general. My ideal tourney pairing: Schwartzkopft versus Powell! I bet even the TV networks would cover that match! Well, I can dream can't I?!?

[ScottDT]

Originally posted by JasonC:

OK, a whole bunch of stuff to comment on here. Keep it slow, or the game will run away from the analysis.

First off, on the proposal to send a half dozen half squads each on their lonesome trapsing through hill and dale, poking under every bush, until somebody shoots at them - it was a gamey way to do recon in CMBO but it won't work very well in CMBB. It is better to have a half squad step out a modest distance ahead of a whole platoon.

Yes, the half squads can easily get pinned by whoever shoots at them. But that isn't the half of it. In addition, if the fire is at any appreciable range, you won't locate the shooter with a pinned half squad. You will just get a "sound contact" in some general area. Also, when you give an out-of-command half squad a whole bunch of waypoints to go through, the command delay will rise to 2 minutes or more, even when not under fire - because each added waypoint now adds to the command delay.

The idea of sending eyes before you send the main body is sound. You just do it differently - and more realistically. Have a lead platoon on each line of advance you expect to move along. It "steps off" first. Break one squad into teams, and send one or both ahead of the rest of the platoon, using "move to contact" as their movement order. The rest of the platoon follows a half minute behind or so (by using pause e.g.), using "move".

That way you have a platoon's worth of eyes and ears nearby. When the point men are fired at, they will halt and go to ground. The rest of the platoon will continue to advance, and like a not will draw abreast of the point by the end of the minute of contact. Presto, a fire base to ID and then engage whatever the "point" discovered.

If you follow a full minute behind, the point is more vunerable, but the rest of the platoon will still be a ways back from the point of contact the next time you get to give them orders. The foremost men draw most of the fire, so the main body should still be able to maneuver.

This should be the ordinary way you "travel" with infantry, before contact has been made. Platoons following behind others can just use "move" and keep in the wake of the leading ones. Note that "medium" speed teams will keep up with infantry using "move", and the men will not tire. Slow teams will lag behind, however.

Even a half squad scout will see enemy vehicles and bunkers at long range, as soon as a clean LOS line between them is reached. And if the defenders are holding their fire until you are close (hide or short covered arcs), then naturally the half squad will locate them when it walks into them.

Ranged weapons like MGs are, however, much harder to pin down as to exact location. If you have a sizable body of infantry within about 200 yards and they are firing, you will generally locate them. At 400m or so, you can only count on a "sound contact", even with many eyes. Bigger caliber guns can be spotted much farther away once they fire. But the "if shooting, then seen" behavior of CMBO is history.

I have many more comments on the opening, which I will discuss in a seperate post after this one. I just wanted to address scouting methods first.

Great post! That one taught me quite a lot! Are you real world military or just well versed in wargaming?

[ScottDT]

Originally posted by CharonJr:

Hello,

I really like both of the ideas here (virtual classroom and the 2nd virtual classroom with a vet playing OPFOR).

I don't really like the plan/setup for this current engagement, since I think some closer inspection of the terrain might have led to a somewhat different approach. But considering that this is supposed to provide some valueable lessons this is fine anyway

Since I am still only getting started in the "art" of mapreading I would have appreciated a closer look at this topic.

Considering this what I would really appreciate for this kind of lessons would be a possibility to have the map available for download somewhere in order to take a closer look at the terrain and some comments about this. This would be even more important for the lesson vs. the vet IMO.

Great idea...

All good ideas. As can be seen, I sought of threw this virtual classroom idea together with no overall plan. I hope the next person who decides to run such a session will consider these many good suggestions and provide a better lesson plan, so to speak!

Why is everyone criticizing my setup?!? :confused: It seems to be working so far!

But keep the suggestions coming---I'm filling up my notepad! Look out wargaming world, the first graduating class of CM University is on the way!

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by scottdt:

<<<I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I get results: CM needs a live audience capability like TACOPS!>>>

Well we're working on it now, aren't we? Here we are, molding the "Poor man's CM3 w/ Live Aud Capability", like the valiant forward recon special ops players that we clearly are...

How about posting your cme files? Not much I can really get from the pic:

<<<How can I do that?>>>

Just grab your "Autosave.cme" file and upload it to the same place you're sticking these pix, (you poor, poor AOL customer you!).

<<<In CM3, it might be a nice idea to have variable-sized set-up zones for the two sides, that way the players would never be able to guess how close the enemy actually was.>>>

Brilliant! Completely obvious, but still- never occurred to me, anyhow. Shame it's too late for CMBB, that surely would have been easy to do. Dang!

<<<I particularly like using the Pioneers as an ambush force for armored vehicles---never considered that before.>>>

Nothing in this game is more satisfying than taking out a nasty T34 with a beautiful little satchel charge- Boom!!

<<<No, in an attack, I rather have extra infantry than arty.>>>

Well if that 105 doesn't take out the guns, or if he's got more than *two* around here, (quite possible, eh?), I sure hope we've still got those 81 mortars with fresh loads around! How about a compromise- let's not *waste* the 81s on *anything* other than a serious Gun? (At least for awhile, until the board is well scouted). Remember that your SS can sometimes poke a hole in those BigGuns too, if they're lucky.

<<<I hate having my armor sit around, seems like such a waste.>>>

When there is a problem which a tank *could* solve, perhaps it might seem like a "waste" to let him sit in the back like a shy guy, but when we need a tank, and we don't have one... ! Now *that* can be a very serious problem. Here we are with one tank left... and we haven't even done anything yet!!

Anyhow. So where are the 81s now?

Eden

[xerxes]

I'll disagree with the armor philosophy here. On the attack your HE throwers should be used EARLY to support your infantry. The reason is that your infantry needs the help of the tanks to oversome resistance and minimize infantry ammo expenditure and casualties.

The afv should move to gain LOS on suspected positions from a keyhole position. Sure you risk the loss of the tank IF an AT gun is in the keyhole. I find it worth the risk in almost all cases from my experience. I want all the firepower I can muster to take down resistance.

When I'm defending I like to target the attacking infantry first. When the infantry attack is broken, the enemy armor has a much harder time.

[ January 27, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: xerxes ]

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by xerxes:

On the attack your HE throwers should be used EARLY to support your infantry.

Use them early today, don't have them tomorrow!

But why debate, anyhow- we're here for something more fun! I hereby nominate you to be our ArmeurFuhreur!! Yes! Take control of the *entire* armored force here (whatever that little light tank is that's left?), and show us what you can do, whaddaya say?

In fact, I'll login with another email address and second the motion, so that's settled. Except that... of course I'm supposing/hoping that scottdt will be back sometime to post the autosave files for us- I admit there's not much one can truly see just by the pix...

Eden

[Cpl Carrot]

Just a quick bumpski to see if anyone will take me up on my offer.

Cpl Carrot

[ScottDT]

Turn 20:

Nothing too new as can be seen in the above picture. We continue to inch our way forward towards the victory flags, but are starting to sustain heavy casualties from enemy infantry (the green line indicates our forward edge). I do believe we killed both enemy AT guns that occupied the hill in the back center as they have gone dormant since coming under our MG42 machine guns. Unfortunately, we have located a third gun in the back left. Further bad news: our StuH has had its gun damaged by enemy arty. Is it just me or is the AI using its arty with uncommonly good skill?

My plan stays the same: inch forward on a broad front and hope we have enough time to take those victory flags. There is at least 10 minutes left so we do have some hope.

[ScottDT]

Two other things:

1) there is some sort of SP gun in the far back center, but so far it has done virtually nothing.

2)I have yet to find a way to post my CM autosave file to my website using AOL's hometown software. Any ideas?

[ScottDT]

Anyhow. So where are the 81s now?

Eden [/QB]

[ScottDT]

It is over and I have lost! :mad: I find it ironic that my first loss to the AI happened when I was posting the game for all to see! But perhaps it is for the best as it will give us something to discuss.

Here are the final statistics:

Axis Men Okay 174

Allied Men Okay 351

Axis Total Casualties 144

Allied Total Casualties 56

Axis KIA 46

Allied KIA 16

2 Allied Guns destroyed

1 vehicle each destroyed

Flags held by Axis 0 pts

Flags held by Allies 600 pts

Axis Enemy Casualties 351 pts

Allied Enemy Casualtes 646 pts

Final Score 22% Axis 78% Allied

(The red line in the above picture denotes the FEBA at the end of this QB.)

Argh! That extra 10% given to the AI seemed to have made a big difference.

I think what doomed my side was the complete lack of assistance afforded by my armor. One was bogged down from turn 1, one was killed (the Hotchkiss) and my big gun (StuH 42) had its big gun damaged just as it was getting into the action. That effectively reduced me to an infantry assault against solid defenses situated in a small town that had a conveniently located road serving as a cleared fire zone! Not only that, but the enemy occupied the heights from which they constantly shelled my postion with accurate arty and AT-gun fire. It was just too much. I doubt that even if I had massed all my units on one side that I would have made much of a breakthrough although I am open to opinions on that.

So any final opinions, comments? Nothing too scathing I hope....

One final thought: the AI actually went from the defensive to the offensive near the end of the QB! I haven't seen it do that in a long time. Well done!

This concludes the first session of the virtual classroom. I hope some other soul will take up where I left off as I think this idea has merit. It would be even better if we could take these sessions and put them in some sort of ezine. Just a thought!

[TikiBob]

So whatever happened with the idea for a joint game played vs some Vet player? With threads discussing the game as it goes?

Sounds like a great idea!

Ken

[Cogust]

Haven't really had the time to contact a veteran player yet, so it's pretty much up in the air at the moment. I also have to conjure up a good and interesting map as well as some reasonable/interesting settings as well.

A simple solution would be for myself to be the non-peeking veteran players, but then someone else better be the one who coordinate the commitee players as I might get some useful info from plotting the moves for both sides. It couls work if I played the defending side and worked up a basic plan before the game starts and stick to it and base all my decisions on the facts I *should* have and not those I actually have. But I fear that I would be influenced by knowing the other side's moves even if I tried not to.