pavlov Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I keep tellin my wife, "It's not a 'game,' it's a tactical freakin simulator!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 You know, I've actually thought quite a bit about this, and I don't think I agree. It is a wargame. I might concede it as a compromised simulation; it does as much as it can to simulate WWII tactical combat while remaining a wargame. In the right circumstances it could also be used as a simulation. Combat Mission places a player in (nearly) godlike control over one side on the battlefield; while you do make decisions, to a significant extent the choices that the player makes are different than those that a battlefield commander would have had to make. CM is a lot more entertaining in many respects - you'd have a better simulation if you were responsible for setting up the plan based on only your side briefing and a paper map, and then had someone else play the game following your orders via handwritten notes. Fundamentally, because CM only vaguely approximates the actual process of commanding troops at company/battalion/whatever level, it really is a game, albeit an exceptional one. This isn't a semantic difference; I'm not talking about the game "simulating" what the commander had for breakfast. I haven't quite come up with a good way to put this into words, but my intuition is that most of what a commander has to worry about on the day of battle is "action," while most of what a CM player has to worry about is "decision." If that makes any sense. Scott 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Bolt Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 It really is a game. Thanks for snapping me back to reality. I was sure I've been on the steppes of Russia for the last 6 months. Wow as I look around, I again realize that I am back in the den of my home here in So Cal USA. Maybe the last 6 months were just a flashback :eek: to the 70s. Ah yes, the 70's my first taste of COMBAT SIMULATION playing AH Panzer Blitz, Torbruk, Panzer Leader and more... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Fundamentally, because CM only vaguely approximates the actual process of commanding troops at company/battalion/whatever level, it really is a game, albeit an exceptional one. This isn't a semantic difference; I'm not talking about the game "simulating" what the commander had for breakfast. I haven't quite come up with a good way to put this into words, but my intuition is that most of what a commander has to worry about on the day of battle is "action," while most of what a CM player has to worry about is "decision." If that makes any sense. I imagine they saying from the origianl M1 Tank Platoon had it best when it described the player as a "Guiding spirit" that could "possess" any unit on the field. The CM series is the same way. You, the player, are the Battalion, Company, Platoon, and Squad commander. As it should be. A wargame with live players filling out each ladder of the rank structure was tried in WWII Online. Didn't work out so well. Everyone wanted to be Rommel, nobody want to be Private Can N. Fodder. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoppinHobbit Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Nippy, WWII Online is doing just fine thankyou. Small bump at first *understatement* but now its rolling. Try once 1.9 comes out, you'll change your mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzertruppe Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 WW2 online???? I don't care if the 100th patch makes it fun or not.....any game that is released intentionally unfinished and unplayable will never be on my hard drive or take up any of my wargaming time! I would much rather play "Barbies GI Nurse" then any game put out by a company that Butt-F#%*ked everyone who ran out and bought the first release of that coaster! :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Is Playnet (WWIIOL) still in Chapter 11? Regards, Badger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Originally posted by PoppinHobbit: Nippy, WWII Online is doing just fine thankyou. Small bump at first *understatement* but now its rolling. Try once 1.9 comes out, you'll change your mind. Ohhhhh.....knifes...that are still at minimum 3 monthes away. Mocking will come later, but first, back to our subject. Two ideas are prevaliant when trying to remove burdin on the human player in a Higher Operational level wargame. 1. Automate lower level forces - No AI in existance can equal the human brain. Look at how many times people scream "WTF are you doing!?" at the Tac-AI in CMBB. Imagine giving command of a vital tank Platoon or infantry company to the AI in CMBB. Usually you have to use a "Board Game" style of number crunching and abstract the smaller level battles IE 'The Operational Art of War' 2. Online Play with players filling all roles - This is what WWII Online tried to do. A noble idea, but doomed to failure. The idea was the logistics Grogs would join the higher level planning groups while the tacticans would play as your riflemen, tankers, pilots, ect. The problem? Player base. The lack of control by a High Command over the total forces for each side lead to something more akin to a riot than a war. Take the annoyance of CSTS (Cowardly Soviet tanker Syndrom) when your ISU-122 get the drop on a Tiger and runs away. Multiply it by a million. And that is the frustation level you will face. Nothing like watching every tank at your disposale get wasted by General. L33t-d00d as he driving them one after another into an ambush. 2A. But, low level (squad or Platoon) games are fun to organize if you can find like minded people. I played the Invasion44 demo with some Grogs from the General forum and had a blast. Still, try and find a comapny worth of Grogs. Not going to happen. In the end: More Player control = More fun. Now I commence with the mocking *Missing since June 2001* If sighted, please proceed to the nearest phone and call 1-800-BUYCRSACLUE immeaditaly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Sounds like a bad case of 'adult male angst', a common malady who's main symptom is subconscious regression to childhood, accompanied by large doses of denial. To illustrate: CM isn't a game. G.I. joe isn't a doll. Model tanks aren't toys. Wearing you favorite team's sports shirt and baseball hat to the mall isn't 'playing dress-up'. I recall a foreign friend once being alarmed at how a fair percentage of adult American males still dress like 9-year-olds. Admit it people, we could all use a great deal of therapy! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavlov Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 Alright dudes, I've considered your points carefully, and I would like thank you for your helpful and courtious replies. But, I have to say, you all are not helping my argument in the least! Just whose side are you on anyway??? Can't a man have a little healthy denial? Oh, holy smeg! Maybe I should just give it up and go to church with her on Sundays instead of playing CMBB. Does anyone know a therapist who can cure Obsessive Combat Mission Disorder (caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain according to 9 out of 10 psychiatrists [on the payroll of Elli Lilly])? If not, I'll have to go to the priest and ask him to banish the evil, tormenting CM beast from my mind. Chew on that BTS! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Originally posted by pavlov: Alright dudes, I've considered your points carefully, and I would like thank you for your helpful and courtious replies. But, I have to say, you all are not helping my argument in the least! Just whose side are you on anyway??? Can't a man have a little healthy denial?...Pavlov: They don't get it. I get it. As far as my wife is concerned, CMBB is a tactical freakin' simulator! Either that, or a powerful mental exercise that will help me analyze the terrain of an upcoming landscaping project, or plot more efficient....errr...waypoints on the kids' route to school, or a stimulating social interaction that serves as an alternative to nights spent at the local pub. Anything but a "Wargame." And Panzertruppe, tell me more about "GI Nurse" Barbie.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavlov Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 Pavlov: They don't get it. I get it.Ah, at last, the voice of sympathy! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I play my share of Combat Mission and go to Mass on Sundays. I don't feel that CM is sinful unless of course you are obsessed with it and it occupies every waking moment of your day. Now if you will all excuse me I have to make an appointment at the rectory for a confession and an exorcism. Uhhh ... just kidding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I just tell my girl that "the beatings will continue until your attitude improves". (kidding) Eh, all I can say is that I am a middle-aged man still playing "army men". Then again, my toy soldiers never screamed during play. Did someone mention GI Joes? I confess! I used to...used to...play with dolls! But my dolls were sticking bayonets into those little slits by the neck, legs and arms! THAT'S BETTER! Tell your wife anything, TELL HER YOU'LL MISS HER! It's just a game--a great freakin' addictive game! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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