Wittmann in the East,

[Corvidae]

Playing this mission as soviets,

Finding it a royal pain,

All units are padlocked and unmovable ,

some are in awfull locations, and must be walked to a better location , at risk of being spoted and killed,

The tanks arive on turn 10 in an awkward place , In the middle of my far left flank,

And they must be moved from this dangerous location before the germans spot them ,,

At turn 12 i lost all 3 tanks in 10 seconds max,,

Has anyone had any experience playing this one as soviets ?

[JasonC]

It is a Nazi fan-boys joke, nothing whatever to do with the battle of Kursk.

The Russians are supposed to be an anti-tank strongpoint. But the 76mm guns are all infantry guns, with no AT ability at all, even against Pz IVs. They have 2 45mm that won't penetrate 50mm front armor.

They get armor very late, after the Germans have had half a day to smash up the Russian infantry. Then they get radioless vehicles. The first lot green, to ensure maximum command delay. Oh and they get all of 3 of them against 4 Tigers and 8 Panzer IVs. Just scrap metal.

By the time the Russians start getting serious armor in the form of 2 more T-34 platoons with decent morale, the entire Luftwaffe is out looking for them. Not that 6 T-34s could do anything to 4 Tigers.

The Russians have so few AT mines it is blind luck if a single Pz IV hits one in the whole game. They have no infantry AT ability whatever. Their ATRs might hole a German halftrack if they are still around, that's about it.

The Russians get massive artillery support in the form of one 82mm spotter. Just the thing.

When they do get bigger armor it is SU-122s, meant for HE chucking at infantry, just like the infantry guns.

The whole thing is a joke, a way of murdering puppies on the computer screen. I've got one just like it the other way, set in June of 1944, in which the Russians get gobs of T-34/85s and veteran SMGs and Guards infantry, plus 120mm spotters and rocket prep, against 2 battalions of conscript SS infantry with no AT weapons. I call mine "Nazi Punks **** Off".

If anyone wants to see what 1SS actually had to do at Kursk and how the Russians actually fought them, look for my 1SS campaign series tobe out shortly. In which the Germans take progressive losses in each fight and must win each to continue to the next, while the Russians - each being a successive formation - are fresh each time and only need to stop the Germans once. The Germans do have an occasional Tiger. But the Russians haven't had their balls cut off by the scenario designer before you hit "go".

[Der Kuenstler]

Yeah I played "Wittman in the East" as the Germans by PBEM once and, seriously - all I had to do is line up all my tanks side by side behind the first crest, put them on "hunt" and send them forward - I won a Total Victory without losing a single tank. It was no fun for either of us.

[JasonC]

1SS First Day scenarios are now uploaded to the Proving Grounds. I assure you, if you play them all with a group select "hunt", you will get hurt.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

I think it might be much more interesting and challenging if you made a scenario of Wittmann's early days as the commander of a short-barreled StuG

III fighting T-34s. ISTR there's a U.S. Army manual

called Infantry in Battle or somesuch which is a series of combat vignettes of the infantry in several wars. I believe there's an account in there of Wittmann's playing tag with a bunch of T-34s while trying to protect German infantry. As I recall, he got frontal kills by carefully aiming at the turret ring.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Corvidae]

Jason, I see your point ,

it was a draw , and only because i was fighting the AI, If the axis had been a human player , I would have been slaughtered by the 15th turn, And thats with my arrogance and tenacity,, Logic dictates that I surrender on the first turn ,

My mother could have organized a better defencive layout, Of course my mother could probably have scared both armys into going home and cleaning their rooms,

Sombody loves the SS, and used the CM engine as a masterbation tool, I'm going to wash my computer after this, with hot water and BLEACH,

I was able to hurt several of the Pz4s, and a few half tracks, but the Tigers were invulnerable to my defence,

As you said, my guns were unsuited to the AT role, both my 45s were badly placed and my good cover was on fire, the fact that I only had 2, In a pre planed defence, is just pathetic, need 4 (2 per side)with extra hq unit,

My AT rifles were too few, A company on defence should have at least a dozen of the things. not 4,,, I dont even want to talk about my 76.2 infantry guns ,, (USELESS) I think I may have made their infantry cringe slightly, either that or they were laughing at me ,,, I swear I heard hoots of germanic derision and teutonic pity coming from the enemy masses, And only 2 50mm mortars??? what the phuq?

There should be no less than 6, and 6 maxims, not 3 , And why dont I have an AA gun or 2?

The 82 spotter actualy did kill a half track, and sent some german infantry scrambling for cover, with casualtys, But it was realy about anti tank ability, and I didnt have any,

Half way through turn 21, my company HQ had a close call with a stray 88 round, He imediately snuck off the feild, more humiliated than frightened, I let him go, poor bugger,

My Impression of the soviet defence;

Comrades Curly and Larry went to the caspian beach resort for the weekend , and left comrade Moe in charge,

Moe was confused so he called comrade Mickey Mouse, But it was comrade Goofy who was in the office,

This is the only logical explanation,

I need a drink,

[Shmavis]

Hmm. I've played the scenario. I didn't think much of it. A Nazi fan-boy's joke it may be, but it was included in the CMBB Special Edition cd set that I bought. I think you should be careful whom you accuse.

[JasonC]

Look at the defense layouts in my 1SS First Day scenario pack, then look at the padlocked defense layout in this one.

Look at the "regimental" infantry guns and their penetration against 30 degrees at 500 yards, and then look at that of the real 76mm ZIS-3 guns.

Try playing that series with tactics as mindless as will win this one easily. You will see Tigers hit AT minefields or get too close to tank hunters with RPG grenades, or bog in wet steppe. You will see hidden 76mm ATGs at ranges from 200m to 800m hit the Panzer IVs in turret or flank and get kills. You will see pioneers attempting to clear mines along roads shot up by unspotted Maxims or mortars, or by Guardsmen in trenches. The reply fire from the German tanks will break those, but they will get their licks in first.

Try to keep it up through 5 successive lines. Pick any individual smarter tactic you like and try to apply it to the full variety of Russian defenses.

You can send the Tigers first because the 76mm can't hurt them - but that makes the mines and THs more effective. You can send the infantry first to clear the THs, and pioneers to clear the mines, but that makes the infantry, MGs, mortars, and artillery more effective. You can send the other tanks to find paths through the mines while the Tigers overwatch with impunity, but that will let the 76mm get kills of vanilla Panzers before being taken out.

Next you get to take "villages" that span km on operational maps. You can't rubble all the houses, there are far too many of them. Panzergrenadiers get shot in the open streets between them. Everybody you spot you can hit with tanks etc, but each gets its licks in. Mines, hidden ATGs, and occasionally T-34s will get Panzers standing off from time to time. They can't rampage at will because the close in threat from unseen THs and infantry is too great.

In the last, you have to deal with more dug in guns, tanks, registered artillery, with a shrinking edge in odds. You can, but you will lose tanks doing so (vanilla Panzers to 76mm ATGs from hiding, mostly), and you will lose men (to artillery, stealthier weapons at range, unspotted squads as they close, etc).

That is battle of Kursk stuff. Running over a half a dozen guns that can't penetrate 50mm of armor and can rarely hurt even 30mm, with a dozen tanks 4 of them Tigers - running over infantry in regularly spaced trenches without any mutual support or use of cover, by just shooting HE into them - that is not the battle of Kursk.

Whoever designed this scenario doesn't understand the first thing about Russian tactics, or even understand their equipment. They are cartoon clay pigeons to shoot, not an army. Let alone the army that actually stopped the Germans.

[Corvidae]

Jason, "Whoever designed this scenario doesn't understand the first thing about Russian tactics, or even understand their equipment. They are cartoon clay pigeons to shoot, not an army. Let alone the army that actually stopped the Germans" Your point is shared, This is not the Soviet army, it's a joke,

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

JasonC,

I think it might be much more interesting and challenging if you made a scenario of Wittmann's early days as the commander of a short-barreled StuG

III fighting T-34s. ISTR there's a U.S. Army manual

called Infantry in Battle or somesuch which is a series of combat vignettes of the infantry in several wars. I believe there's an account in there of Wittmann's playing tag with a bunch of T-34s while trying to protect German infantry. As I recall, he got frontal kills by carefully aiming at the turret ring.

Regards,

John Kettler

Such a scenario already exists. Look here

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

JasonC,

I think it might be much more interesting and challenging if you made a scenario of Wittmann's early days as the commander of a short-barreled StuG

III fighting T-34s. ISTR there's a U.S. Army manual

called Infantry in Battle or somesuch which is a series of combat vignettes of the infantry in several wars. I believe there's an account in there of Wittmann's playing tag with a bunch of T-34s while trying to protect German infantry. As I recall, he got frontal kills by carefully aiming at the turret ring.

Regards,

John Kettler

You could try my HSG B Bussard scenario. It is based on the action you describe here. His call sign at the time was Bussard.

Here is the main scenario briefing:

12 July 1941

Near Rovno, Russia

In the Assault Gun section of the division is a young corporal from Upper Pfalz, Germany. His name is Michael Wittmann. He would become one of the greatest tank men of the war. In early 1941 though he was just in charge of a Sturmgeschutz assault gun. The 1st SS 'LAH' was supporting 1st Panzer Group when the 3rd Panzer Corps got in trouble.

Later standing in front of his division commander Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich he was awarded the Iron Cross First Class for his actions on the side of hill 56.9. He later received the Tank Assault Badge for this fight as well.

He had engaged 18 Russian tanks and destroyed 6 of them. Are you destined to be a tank ace? Can you knock out 6 Russian tanks and still live to tell about it?

Give it a try and see how you do. Enjoy. :cool:

[vandem]

I tried this scenario last week as Axis, kept wondering when I would get surprised by something Russian and hidden. Didn't bother finishing. Disappointing...

... which leads to a follow up question ...

... is there a place on the web where the original game CD scenarios are rated ? (perhaps for difficulty vs historical accuracy vs recommended / avoid rating)

[slysniper]

I unlocked the Russian units, allowed for set up changes and played the Russians as the defenders in a PBEM. As mentioned, it is not designed for the Russians to win, but had great fun playing it this way and did manage to make it a very close fight, might have won if it was not for the plane.

So, maybe it is not a fight how you guys want to imagine it, but there is a few of you that think the Russians need to be the Hero's alway, so you are no better than the Nazi freaks, how about looking how to make balence Scenario's that both sides have a chance. This one only needed a few guns switched over to the 76 ers and it would make for a great PBEM as long as the defence is unlocked.

Some of you guys really need to get a life, stop slamming everything that is not to your likes and realize this is a game and you all are not great war hero's.

You would be amazed as to how many players there are out there that talk about your comments and laugh at your attitudes but are not willing to say anything because they know you will just reply thinking you know it all and are God's of this forum.

[ April 10, 2006, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[John Kettler]

Kingfish and Panther Commander,

Two scenarios based on the topic I mentioned? Wow!

vandem,

Considering the thread now covers three scenarios, which one are you talking about, please?

JasonC,

Do you have any flamethrower teams running around in those trenches for your 1SS First Day pack? I know the Ferdinands ran into some in their attack sector, and suffered severely in consequence after first being immobilized, lacking both coax and bow MGs with which to defend themselves.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

JK - Ferninands were in the north, and are covered in the Ponyri campaign, not 1SS First Day, which covers the central prong of the southern attack.

As for what the Russians have against them, each major force that they had to drive through is represented. In the Ponyri campaign, the main attack on the forward Russian infantry positions happens in battle 2. In battle 3 they take on the reserve position of the front line division. All of the first 3 historically occurred on the first day. The next one covers the entry to Ponyri proper, north edge of town, and the last 2 are inside the town. Where in all that the Russians had FTs I won't spoil.

[SpitfireXI]

I played this a while back and think I got a draw. The best part was finding it that Wittman drove right into an AT mine and abandoned his tank. I laughed so hard. Since than I have greater respect for the lowly cheap AT mine.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Here is the main scenario briefing:

12 July 1941

Near Rovno, Russia

In the Assault Gun section of the division is a young corporal from Upper Pfalz, Germany.

Ochsenfurt (Oxford)

Cambrücke (Cambridge)

Neu Süd Wales (New South Wales - which happens to be the southern part of Wales)

British Columbia is a part of the District of Columbia, isn't it .

The Oberpfalz (one word) is not the Upper Pfalz. The "Pfalz" (aka Palatinate) lies along the Rhine while the "Oberpfalz" is 200km away to the east.

Never translate a part of a German word - even if it seems the word is just made out of two words. It might have a special meaning in a given context that is lost when you tear it apart

Gruß

Joachim

[Krautman]

Originally posted by Joachim:

Ochsenfurt (Oxford)

Cambrücke (Cambridge)

Neu Süd Wales (New South Wales - which happens to be the southern part of Wales)

[/QB]

A dear friend of mine - Ein Tierfreund vom Main

[vandem]

vandem,

Considering the thread now covers three scenarios, which one are you talking about, please?

JasonC,

The "Wittman in the East" from the thread title.

As for my question about "ratings" for original game CD scenarios, I'll do a forum search first, and then post a new thread if I still need to.

[Andreas]

There was a site, but it is gone. I don't think you can find the ratings now, but maybe try Google cache.

All the best

Andreas

[Corvidae]

Joachim,

british columbia is a province in canada , its on the west coast ,, its got good ski country and good pot growing ,, it rains a lot and the women wear very little, i keep meaning to go there ,,,

slysniper,

say what ?, you just made zero sense,

JasonC,

The mission is meeting the editor, give me some advice,

[Sergei]

Corvidae,

, is no substitute for .

This nitpicking was brought to you as a public service, no need to thank.

[JasonC]

Cor - look at scenarios 2 and 3 of my 1SS First Day campaign pack at the Proving Grounds, called 1SS Initial Assault and 1SS Breakthrough. Those are my suggestions. Use or abuse as you see fit (though I'd try playing them first...)

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

I wasn't trying to imply that Ferdinands were in your op area, indeed suspected with my sleep deprived mind they were elsewhere, but was merely trying to find out whether you had flamethrower teams as part of your integrated antiarmor defenses.

I freely admit, though, that the question was fueled by dim memories of what Caidin said in his THE TIGERS ARE BURNING and the Russian how-to-fight placard at www.battlefield.ru

Regards,

John Kettler

[Corvidae]

JasonC,

I will look, whether I will understand is another matter, but I will play them,

Sergei,

If you dont like my abuse of the english language, wait till you see what I do to your army,,,,,

I'm going to pluck your aircraft, and fry them in oil, I'll serve them in a paper bucket labled KFC, with bad fries and cold gravy,

I'm going to make your artilery commit bizzare acts of proctology on themselves with their own weapons,

I'm going to send your panzers back to you with bad flame jobs, neon plush interiors, jacked up rear suspensions, and fuzzy dice,

I'm going to make your infantry dance in a brittney spears video, In drag!!!!!!