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Most uneven combats in which the underdog wins!


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During a QB attack against a Russian village & hilltop in September 1941 (as part of a campaign I've begun) my Kampgruffe spotted two KV heavy tanks beyond & above the target village.

I was severely outgunned as I had only 2 PzIIC's, some 75mm FO's, a panzer rifle company & support elements in the shape of HMG's, mortars & a WWI 75mm infantry gun.

Most of my mortars were dispersed in wooded slope & from here I easily knocked out several Tankettes & armored cars.

This was enough to entice one of the KV's into the village to investigate.

However as it was unable to determine where the mortar fire came from it halted 150m from the wood.

I called in 75mm artillery & then begun to open fire with my mortars hoping to disable it.

The KV began to withdraw & it was then that my 1918 infantry gun opened up.

It fired over ten rounds into the steel monstrosity & immobilized it.

I then brought a PzIIc over a hilltop & poured long range fire down onto it.

The infantry gun continued to pound the KV & finally the crew abandoned the stricken tank!

My mortars & infantry gun then provided fire support for a cautious attack on an enemy trench this went beautifully until the second KV decided to make itself known.

The heavy tank started a long-range duel with my 75mm & realizing I was outgunned I fired smoke shells in front it.

Under this cover my infantry gun moved to an alternate position within the woods & the whole of my force hid.

Soon enough this KV advanced through the smoke to a position not far from the wreckage of the first KV.

I once again called artillery fire & mortar fire, rather than withdraw the KV instead charged the woods, spotted & then engaged my infantry gun at 120m.

For nearly two minutes this short-range duel continued with as many as 20 shells hitting the KV. The infantry gun could have been knocked out any time & did lose two crewmembers but finally the KV stopped firing.

I then brought in my two PzIIC's & fired flank & rear shots at the beast.

It merely began to withdraw & so tank riding half squads jumped off the Panzers & began to assault it.

The Russian vehicle shrugged off many grenades & so a bizarre chase began in which my tiny Panzers & their infantry rapidly pursued a seemingly indestructible foe.

Finally the KV succumbed near enemy occupied woods & victory was assured.

Amazing.

What has been your most uneven combat in which the underdog won?

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An attack on partisans at 200% strength with 40% ammo. I had 8 tanks and several guns, but only a company and a half of infantry. QB map was a city in medium woods and medium hills. I got one out of ten flags... and then offered an armistice due to heavy ammo shortages. AI accepted - draw. so the underdogs stopped an armored onslaught.

A defense on a huge open map with several small villages. I had 2 plts of PzIIIg, 1plt of PzIVe/f, 1 plt of StuGIIIbs plus a few PzII. Lots of halftracks, a few bunkers and an array of guns (1 5cm Pak, 1 7.6cm Pak, several 3.7 PaKs with HC) and a few TRPs, mines and wire. 2 Coys of infantry. 5000pts, 100% bonus for the AI and I had only spent about 3500 pts. 17000 pts for the AI. 30+ T34, a handful of KVs, 20+ light tanks and 4-5000 grunts. Plus lots of FOs. Wet terrain - the AI stayed on the roads.

Soviet attack plan: 2 armor pincers, one infantry column. The latter hit a TRP in trees... plus I had an entrenched 15cm sIG way back and a couple of MGs - so much for the enemy infantry. One minefield got a KV and a T34 plus a light tank. Another one got a T34 (all without LOS to my MLR). The PaK did a great job. TRPs and 3.7cm HC is great vs KVs. I got many of the Soviet tanks with the PaK, then the armor and a plt of infantry nearby charged one pincer and eliminated it before my ammo run out. I kept the flags, the 2nd pincer was delayed by offering targets or sniping at them.

Gruß

Joachim

[ May 11, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

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Playing against the AI you can win easily in most situations. Played as Finns in May 44, Sovs had 125%, 1000 pts CA, ME.

My armour consisted of 2 Bt-42 and a Bt-5 with a coy of inf, a 105mm FO and 2 75mm ATG. I faced (saw this after the game was over ofcos) 4 SU-122s a Battalion worth of Inf and a arty FO. Long story short, I won 100-0. Sovs had over 350 cas and I had 2 or 3.

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The infantry was for the most part either entrenched or stationed in a wooded hilltop beyond & to the left of the KV's starting positions.

Once I knocked out all the tankettes & armored cars with mortars (so easy, so much fun) & dealt with the KV's these troops were isolated & consequently 'liquidated'.

Actually the worst part of the battle occurred when my PzIIc was knocked out by HMG fire, which came as a bit of a shock!

Panzer76 & Joachim you certainly sound like you were underdogs in those battles!

However what about any particular events;

Did anyone ever take out a Tiger tank with a lend lease Stuart :eek: ?

Or perhaps a single dug in German HMG kept at bay an assault by a dozen armored cars.

Maybe a single Russian tank hunter team armed with 'deadly' Molotov cocktails knocked out three Panzers.

Perhaps one Romanian PAK 37 fought off six T-34's.

I want amazing war stories people!

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A underdog of numbers:

My platoon of Tigers against a reinforced Batallion of advancing russian infantry I catched in the open during a rainstorm.

Ok, it was a slaughter

(kept the tanks moving all the time and encircled the bunch of infantry like Indians did to settlers).

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My green, Romainian tank hunter team were out on point (out of command) in a Soviet attack (Romanians as axis at this point). On the other flank is a green infantry squad, in command this time.

Suddenly, over the hill appears some infantry, then more and more. It rapidly dawns on me that I'm facing partisans, so no AFVs. This negates a large portion of my force (capable anti-tank guns with high rarity). Moreover, the attack is coming in primarily on my flank, and the squad can't retreat, nor can the tank hunters.

The human wave keeps coming across the open hilltop, and more appear out of a wood coming at the poor tank hunters. Closing to 200m, 150m, 100m - I hold fire until as late as possible - 50m and Fire! To my surprise, the fire rolls back the attacking infantry and the return fire is slight. Nonetheless, they rally and come back - this goes on for about 10 turns - the point unit being the only ones able to find cover, so I can't move others up to support them.

When the dust cleared, I'd suffered 30% casualties to the squad and none to the tank hunters. The Squad had garnered over 100 kills, whilst the TH's had racked up more than fifty.

Needless to say, I won that one.

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Playing a PBEM as Italians in a scenario and somehow managing to immobilize all but one of my opponents company of Matilda IIs with my trash conscript and green Libyans and Italians.

I had nothing that could actually penetrate the Matilda's armour. But track hits and then swarming with platoons of conscripts sure helps.

My favorite part was, after he had run over most of my guns, was seeing a Matilda charging one of 20mm AA guns. The AA gun was blazing away as the Matilda got closer and closer, eventuall immobilizing it about 10 meters away. I think I could see the panic in their little pixelated eyes.

The Matilda and the AA gun then proceeded to have the stupidest gun duel ever. 20mm HE versus 2 pdr AT. The AA gun was firing 20+ shots per turn. I eventually got the tank by massed grenades from green platoon.

Jason

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Originally posted by Lucho:

A underdog of numbers:

My platoon of Tigers against a reinforced Batallion of advancing russian infantry I catched in the open during a rainstorm.

Ok, it was a slaughter

(kept the tanks moving all the time and encircled the bunch of infantry like Indians did to settlers).

** Pictures the closing moments of the Battle of Hoth with rebels being squashed like ants..... :eek:

Uh huh, underdogs indeed :D Their biggest problem might be hosing off the treads later.....

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Many mooons ago, in CMBO as noob, I had tanks repeatedly knocked out rounding a corner coming out of woods by an AT gun.

Rinsed and repeated till I had no more tanks but quite a few crews itching for revenge.

Cue a 'gamey' crew rush at the offending gun which gave me some satisfaction as they 'bare-handedly' finished it off.

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Note: I posted this first over at the CMAK Forum in a thread on how to deal with AT guns.

"Have you tried airplanes?

In a PBEM game once (I'm Russians attacking Finns), I lost 3 AVs and 2 guns to 4 entrenched Finnish AT guns in the first two turns! I assumed I was doomed. Then my plane flies in (I forget the type), and within 3 turns, bags all 4 guns (killed two placed closely together in one run)! After that, my lone surviving AV managed to support my infantry on to victory.

Hmm, maybe I should post this in the 'improbable victory' thread in the CMBB Forum"

I guess I should have mentioned that massive luck is also quite helpfull :D

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I once had an SU76 kill 4 (or 5, I forget) Panzer IV and StugIII's by charging at them out of the fog and quickly retreating. (Can't remember why I was taking such risks either. Perhaps I was just having too much fun!) I figure the SU76 is so lightly armored it can be considered an underdog. Or for operating under such dubious orders. It finally "bought the farm" though. Collective farm in his case I guess.

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I've had my opponent in a TCP/IP run a SU-76 around my entire left flank, dodging dozens of infantry assualts only to get behind my single immobilized PZIV.

At the end of the turn both guns were facing each other. I checked with LOS tool, 99% chance of hit.

So I start the turn, boom! MISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kablammo, a PzIV in flames :(

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Well, my "underdog" story is as follows:

I was playing a mission where i was defending a hilltop, and i had reinforcements (a regular rifle platoon, IIRC). I forgot about them for two turns, and then found them. Instead of moving them to my hilltop, i decided, on a lark, to move them along a forest to secure the other side of the map.

So, they're walking in some nice autumn forests, when suddenly, they see Germans.

My response: Ok, isolated Germans versus a platoon. Let's go.

So, i started to maneuver, suppress, and assault. I killed one squad, two squads, three squads......

And then i realized that the difference between the squads i killed weren't just their place in the platoon; also, WHICH platoon they were in, and which COMPANY.

By the end of the battle, that one platoon had gutted an infantry company. They did manage to bypass my platoon, but when they attacked my main force, they got cut up. I totaled it up: That one platoon cause well over 80 casulties, while losing....20 men, i believe?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Green Su-76 nailing two Panthers and a Tiger with flank shots.

Only fired six shots total, for five hits. The Panthers brewed up on the first hits, the Tiger took a bit of a pounding before the crew bailed.

Two shots, two kills on the Panthers... pity it was against the AI.

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For me it's the opposite, and the AI giving me a swift lesson on the topic of "Probabilities are not always right". The scenario was CMAK's "Mishmish", that I had already played as the Brits (and that had resulted in a Draw), but wanted to give it a shot playing the Italians - of course, I knew what forces to expect from the AI's side.

There was one canyon-like way to my understrength flank I wanted to guard against limey incursions, so I first sent 2 AT tankettes (20mm gun, not terribly effective but that's the best I could muster there), quickly rejoined by two more. I set the four of them in overwatch positions, a pair on each ridge of the canyon. Lo' and behold, two british very light tanks (can't remember the exact type, but it's a tank that only carries a HMG, yet is a bit bigger/harder than a mere armored car) come racing down, apparently having not seen my tankettes.

I order them to fire in twos, against the tanks sides (left group fired at right tank, right group at left tank). I score numerous penetrations on both, but it doesn't seem to slow them down. The right one scares the crew of one tankette, which bails out, then the english tank reverses out of sight (the scenario features a full blown sandstorm, with sight reduced to 70ish meters tops). Left one just flies through my defense without batting an eyelid.

I kept the 3 AT tankettes in position in case the reversing limey came back for another assault (he didn't - after the battle I saw the crew had bailed out in panic just out of sight). Then came my reinforcements : 3 MG armored cars speeding from the rear to plug the breach. Each of those was equal to that Brit tank, be it in armor or firepower. They nailed him in open ground, each coming from a different direction, and hosed him with lead from the front, right side, and rear.

Two turns later, there was one Brit tank, and three dead Italian armored cars.

I had to bring a "real" tank up front and two of those AC tankettes to its rear to finally take him out, after innumerable penetrations. Talk about berserk crews...

[ June 02, 2004, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Kobal2 ]

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Its all about position and skill. ESPECIALLY skill. If tyhe KV's were green or conscript of coarse--you should own them. But it does sound like they took a hell of a beating before they gave up. Plus it sounds like you outgunned him heavily-Two panzers on his flank- an AT at his front, and artillery fire coming down from the heavens. I would be very surprised if you didn't knock him out. Plus--you were the Germans.

But at any rate-great story, felt like I was really in it.

-Tigerkommandant

Josef Strausse

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Well it was a WW1 infantry gun not a PAK, the Panzers were PzIIc’s, the artillery a few 75mm salvo’s & the mortars a few 50mm/81mm but yeah I get your point I had a lot of overall firepower.

As it was I think the infantry gun did most of the damage, the PzII’s seemed most useful for delivering the tank riders.

Does anybody know how effective mortar/artillery fire is on a tank such as a KV?

That sounded like a pretty humbling experience Koblar2!

I don’t have CMAK yet but do British HMG’s really find it that easy to penetrate Italian light armour?

In CMBB I’ve developed a healthy respect for the penetrating power of that 12.7mm Soviet naval HMG so I suppose it’s not too surprising.

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Well, like I said, that mission was in a sandstorm, so all fights were at pretty close range.

But the ACs weren't killed, their crews just bailed out of good vehicules, the Italian pansies. All in all, I think that out of the 10ish vehicules that were bagged by HMGs (be it Italian or English), only three were really knocked out, the rest were just abandonned.

But yeah, I was pretty pissed off by that counter-performance smile.gif

Arty is not good with single tanks - by the time the shelling lands, the tank is already halfway across the map. Plus, unless you're firing really HEAVY stuff, nothing but a direct top hit will do much. I did a field test of german rocket FOs on a quick battle (I think the rockets were 168mm, +/- 20mm), no FOW, two FOs against one Sherman, one Sexton, one M10, with prepared barrages.

The first wave got a lucky direct hit on the open-top M10, killing two of the crew and immobilising it and ruining it's gun, but the Sherman had a rocket land right next to it that only killed the TC - even large HE won't kill a good tank. Same goes with mortars, though they can kill TCs, which is a good thing, and sometimes panic the crew if they're green.

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I agree heavy stuff is the way to go, I'm currently playing a QB campaign as a Soviet tank commander & my pre-planned heavy barrages usually knock out an enemy tank or two!

However would mortar fire help panic the crew of a tank? Could mortar fire alone panic a conscript heavy tank?

I've decided I'll fight a CMBB recon battle in thick fog between armored cars & halftracks. It sounds so fun using HMG's against vehicles!

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