and the best tank of CM?

[Soddball]

Best tank - something with girls and a fridge for beer.

Beer GOOD!

[Jarmo]

Huh! Hetzer obviously has the best price/performance in the game. JagdPanzer IV/70 is also a great pick, but really only worth getting if you expect to meet something the Hetzer can't kill.

I'd get Hetzers all the time if I was only in for the wins.

For the allies, the Challenger is so sweetly priced it amazes me. The same gun as in the Firefly, but with a fast turret and a cheaper price.

[Panther G]

In my experience, I would have to say the M-18 Hellcat. I penetrated a Jagdtigers frontal turret with a tungsten shell on this tank.

Panther G

[Kallimakhos]

Archers, there's no question about it :cool:

I did some amateurish testing to see which allied tanks would beat the hell out of panthers in frontal slugfest in a 3000 p. frontal slugfest. Were of course speaking about tank to tank cost-effectiviness, which seems to be the topic, nothing else. King Tigers fared even worse than panthers. Only axis tanks that were a match in my speedy testing were Hetzers mentioned by Jarmo, but even those lost both the tests I did.

[Warmaker]

I just realized I haven't played much against the Churchill VIII and Crocodiles. So, decided to play the British for once to take a ride against some panzers (both sides regular). I do see the attraction of the Churchill VIII for the armor and use of hollow charge © rounds. However I have seen several faults after 5 QB on medium and large maps. First, the armor though thick, is at a horrible angle like the Tiger IE. Second, I have noticed the Churchills are VERY bad at ranges of about 800m or above, missing quite often. Add to this the relatively small number of hollow charge rounds available and any significant dueling is a little "iffy" to me. No hollow charge rounds mean a big, tough, but toothless bulldog. IMHO, just keep it against soft targets. I still say the Firefly is the best British tank against armor.

And I have come to like the Churchill Crocodile. Quite a nice toy.

[ 04-28-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Silvio Manuel]

I like Stuarts quite a bit, not only are they fast and good for flanking, and have 3 mgs to smash inf. close assaults, but generally outduel PanzerIVs and their weak turret armor and all light AFVs in a face-to-face slugfest.

Tigers are great (as long as their flanks are protected), i love that they'll laugh at frontal 76mm AP shots.

[Cybeq]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Query for the Stuart fans: What's a Stuart got that a Greyhound doesn't have? Obviously, both are fast, cheap, with thin armor and 37mm guns. But beyond that I haven't really closely compared them. Is there a tangible reason why Stuarts keep getting mentioned with no mention of Greyhounds, or is it simply a matter of this being a thread about tanks, not recon vehicles? Are Stuarts cheaper? I admit I haven't really looked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mentioned the Stuart as my favorite tank in a tank vs. tank scenerio. The lack of a referral to the Greyhound was just to stay on topic. But since you brought it up I love the Greyhound too. The big bonus with the Greyhound is that it doesn't use up your armor points since it is classified as a vehicle in the game. In a game where I choose my units I will usually opt for Greyhounds over Stuarts based on that fact alone. However, Greyhounds only have two machine guns and I think their turret is slower. Add to this the fact that they are open topped and you can see why the Stuart is the better AFV.

[Rubber Bullets]

I don't think we need any of that here DA BEGGINA. Take your pompus additude and stuff it. I'm sure you can fit it next to the corn cob.

[Me. 262]

My favorate German tank would be the tiger, JagdTiger or Panther G late

[John Kelly]

I like the Jumbo with tungsten. Without the tank killing round, its 76mm gun is very ordinary. The thick hide, however, will repel most 75mm/L48 hits, while the 75mm/L70 and up will penetrate most of the time. All things considered, its survivability is the best of the American tanks. John

[Chek]

I play the Brits fairly regularly and have become quite partial to a Churchill VIII,Cromwell IV(40mph) combo.The Churchill works well as a kinda mobile pill box although as previoulsy mentioned as an anti tank weapon it is best for shorter ranges,you don't wanna waste those c shots unnecassarily.The Cromwells protect the Churchills flanks and they are brisk,I see them like a fast Sherman.

Of course for those pop up long range shots it's hard to beat the Firefly or Challenger.

[Stalins Organ]

I haven't seen anything that tops BloodyBucket's post yet, and I agree with him - the best tank is always the one that my opponent has just used to wipe out my own armour!

[Aposotol]

I used to think that an M-18 do all the work against tanks but, i rushed one to the side of a phanter, fired 2 shots the second hit his turret at the front(after rotating it) , it start to fall back fire a 3rd shoot and the blow up. How you can miss 2 shoot at 75m and the only hit was in his front turret.

I hope it was only bad luck. I still like that hot rood.

[Da Beginna]

I went down to the cellar and broke down and cried for hours - rubber bullette.

What about my dear old Hotchkiss? In the campaign "Against old odds / 1. scenario" it proved to have some combat value. It killed a couple of bren ca., tiny stuarts and men.

I was dissappointed when I realised that other French tanks used by the 21th in Normandy like the Somua S-35 or Char BIS weren't displayed in CM. I guess you just can't have every thing...

[Trooper]

Stuart is good, but a Stuart Variant is better. The M8 GMC. It has a better HE punch than the Stuart, and the Anti-Armor capability isn't bad at all. May be a little less accurate at range, and a little slower ROF, it'll still easily knock out a Stug or MkIV from the front, it is fast, it is cheap, and infantry hate it.

That said, I always try to have a 37mm flak or two around to deal with M3/M5/M8s...

NTM

[Redwolf]

Problem with the 17 pdr AT gun and all tanks carrying it (Firefly, Challenger) is that they get no HE shells before October. They are cheaper in that period as well, so it may turn into an advantage, but you should be aware of the issue.

Regarding the Ostwind, compare hit chances of AA versus AT guns and you see why it is quite effective.

The thick variant Cromwells are not much slower than the thin ones except for top speed. Typical terrain movement is almost equal, much better that most other tanks.

The British 95mm gun should be more precise than the American 105mm, almost equal to the Allied 75mm (which is very bad compared to the Axis 75mm L/48 to start with, of course). None of these has a chance in a long-range battle.

[ 05-29-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Redwolf]

I wonder why noone mentioned the Jagdpanther. I don't use itmyself, mainly because I usually play Allies, but several times an opponent turned it into a problem for me.

It is probably the tank with the worst flank protection for the money in the game (armour and no turret), so it needs to be handled with great care. If you do, the front armour is very good, especially against tungsteen due to angle and also against the 105mm HC, just for thickness.

But the Jagdpanther is a very cost-effective insurance against thick Churchills and the like. Buy an overall force that is meant to overcome "normal" forces, small and medium guns, HE-intensive vehicles etc. But just in case the enemy comes in with heavy stuff, take a Jagdpanther so you are not defenseless. If you was trying to get the same insurance with guns, you would have to buy several 88s. Or a tank which is less mobile (Tiger) or has a smaller gun (Panther).

The trick here is that after the tank battle the Jagdpanther still has an 88 and it has about 30 HE shells for it, with blast 50. That is a first-class anti-infantry capability, although the MG ammunition has probably been spent by then.

And another thing about the long German guns (75mm L/70, 88mm L/71) is that the HE is very precise. That is of no great use for anti-squad use, but for sure it is against heavy infantry weapons and guns (should you be forced to attack them with tanks). The HE shells from these guns are also faster, 2 seconds earlier knockout of a Bazzoka can make quite a difference, you know?

[ 05-29-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Chek]

Just took out a Panther at 1300metres with a single C shot from a Mk VIII Churchill.Admittedly a very lucky shot.I suppose loading them up with 20 plus of C shot would be just a little too gamey.

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Chek ]

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chek:

Just took out a Panther at 1300metres with a single C shot from a Mk VIII Churchill.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Panther or Jagdpanther? The Jagd has the armour at a high angle which makes it much more robust than the Panther, even against th otherwise very good British 95mm HC round.

[Stalin's Organ]

Why do people rave about the Stuart?

it's not THAT cheap - 90-something points vs 115 for a M4A1 Sherman, it's gun is only useful vs the flank of German main-line armour, it is 50mm AT-gun bait when it tries to get into position to do that, and the Sherman's 75mm HE is considerably more useful than teh tripple MG "threat" vs infantry.

Greyhounds have the same gun and mobility (if fewer MG's), and do NOT use up "Armour" points....if I was to go for cheap american tanks it'd be a mix of M4A1's, M8 HMC's (for "armour"), and Greyhounds for "vehicle" points.

As a single pick-tank I'd take the M4A1 as a better balanced vehicle than the Stuart, for not much extra cost.

[Gen-x87]

Best tank IMHO has to be the Panther G.

Pretty good slope, can kill anything in the Allies arsenal, and really not that bad against Infantry. Use it more as a terror weapon. Not invulnverable but pretty close. Churchills can kill it with one lucky shot But most of the time they do not have many C rounds to worry about.

Then I would say the Hetzer is another good bargain. 83 points but it can kill most allied armor. If use right they can wreak havoc on an allied player.

Then I would say the Firefly, good tank if you keep it moving Do not let it stop or expect it to be squashed by a cat.

Gen

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

Why do people rave about the Stuart?

it's not THAT cheap - 90-something points vs 115 for a M4A1 Sherman,

[...]

As a single pick-tank I'd take the M4A1 as a better balanced vehicle than the Stuart, for not much extra cost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is comparable to the Sherman, as the M3A1 is extremly immobile in difficult terrain. For the same points, I would prefer the Cromwell VII, my personal single tank choice. The Shermans with added mobility are very expensive.

I buy Stuarts only when I expect that I have to knockout much armour that is vulnerable to the 37mm, like when I play a known lover of Hummels, Wespes and 75mm howitzer vehicles.

In that case, the Stuart avoids "overgunning". Overgunning is not as bad as undergunning (obviously), but it worsens ROF, ammo amount carried, turret speed etc.

Stuart against StuH is an interesting experience, though.

[Warmaker]

The Panthers are the best tank of CM with the G Late version at its zenith. Excellent armor with slope, good speed, practically NEVER bogs in any weather/ground condition, and of course, one cannot help but mention the excellent gun to pop soda cans open with.

Let the Allies keep saying things like "I once killed a Panther from the front/flank/etc. with a 37mm/95mmC/etc." Key word being "once," referring to the survivability of the Panther. You'll never have to say things like "I had my Panther kill a Churchill VIII/Pershing/etc. once frontally with the 75mm." These things are expected and often become the result. Again, further proof of the Panther's superiority.

Numbers? Bah, insignificant... It's quite often for the prey to outnumber the predators...

**This has been a short "Panzer Complex" attack. Sorry if this has deeply hurt or offended anyone **

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Let the Allies keep saying things like "I once killed a Panther from the front/flank/etc. with a 37mm/95mmC/etc." Key word being "once," referring to the survivability of the Panther. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I regularly kill Panthers with Fireflies in CM.

Like someone else posted on this forum before, if the 17 pounder was German it would have a cult following like the 88mm.

The Panther is a great tank, but if purchase price is no object than it would be silly for an Axis player not to pick the Jagtiger, the thing is almost indestructible, but give me a super-gamey 40mm Bofors/ Churchill AVRE combo and I'll fry that sucker.

Gyrene

[CombinedArms]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

I regularly kill Panthers with Fireflies in CM.

Like someone else posted on this forum before, if the 17 pounder was German it would have a cult following like the 88mm.

Gyrene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This may be so, Gyrene--I mean, I get annoyed, sometimes, too, by the worship of Nazi weaponry--but it might be worth noting that the Panther's 75 gun was very similar in many respects to the 17 pounder--like it a long, high velocity gun that was a great tank killer, and IT doesn't have a cult following in and of itself. The Panther DOES, as a complete tank, but people don't seem to get all dewy-eyed about that excellent gun as such. I think the 88 just picked up a mystique early in the war--when it really was a pretty unique weapon--that it continues to retain.

BTW, I've FREQUENTLY killed Panthers with 37mm flank shots. Killed 3-4 of them that way in the operation "First Clash at Stoumont" (one Stuart got two)--shooting from concealed positions and admittedly against the AI. I've also now killed TWO KTs with zook shots in the rear. And I once played an adapted SL scenario where two Green Sherman 76s and a small infantry force wiped out three Vet Panthers and two Stug IIIs, plus a large infantry force, mostly by lurking behind cover and ambushing at the right moment. Yet in one operation I was trying to knock out an abandoned Panther and bounced about 8 Sherm 76 shots off its front armor at 200m before finally moving around to dispatch it from the rear. The point is that everything has its strength but nothing in the game is invulnerable. Maybe the further point is that there's no "best tank" in CM--any one of them can be effective in the right circumstances and any one of them can be defeated.

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]