HiCom, CoS & SC AI Handling of Situations.

[JerseyJohn]

Or ... How I remained with the wife but totally ignored her to fight the computer!

A companion Thread to Iron Ranger's Topic on CoS.

One glaring difference between CoS and either HiCom and SC is the AI's agressiveness, particularly with regard to amphibious operations.

There's no question about FoW, it's understood that the computer sees you even if you choose not to see the computer armies. This is as it should be; either that or allow the AI a couple of days to analyze each of it's moves.

So, as the Axis, if you go traipsing around the map withouth leaving your port cities guarded you end up losing them. It's that simple!

The AI, working on a naval zone system as opposed to HiCom and SC's naval hexes, does not need to work out intricate planes. All it needs to do is have naval units in each of the sea zones from the point of origin to the invasion point, with transports in the originating zone where the troops start from, and it can launch invasions from UK ports to the Mediterrannean, assuming it still has Gibraltar.

HiCom can't manage this and even has difficulty moving units between the Med and the Atlantic. SC has similar problems, the AI seeming reluctant, to say the least, to send units to the Med via normal sea travel (assuming it has ever done it all, which I doubt) and will not send units to the arrows for round the Cape transport.

In CoS the AI routinely sends units around the Cape to Egypt. Why? Because the system for this is much simpler. A unit anywhere in the UK is clicked on and designated to move 'round the cape. It doesn't even need to be near a port!

I feel one of the ways CoS is superior to either of the hex based naval systems is in the ease that both the AI and human players can execute complex transport and invasion maneuvers. Additionally, it does a much better job in controling the sort of weather in which amphibious operations can be carried out. It's impossible to assault snow covered coasts in winter weather; but that same turn it remains perfectly feasable to land almost anywhere in the Mediterrannean.

Also helping is the use of artificial harbors to serve as beachheads for the initial period till a harbor can be captured. After a couple of months the Mulberry (which is fairly expensive) is considered exhausted and removed. Till then it remains in place, has a defensive value and incurs losses when attacked.

HiCom also uses a transport system, a bit more comlicated and one the AI has much more trouble with, but a basically viable one for human players. It is also affected by weather conditions.

The downside of the CoS system is it's a bit too easy to lose large units like corps, armies and even army groups (HQs, which are housed in oversized armies) during an unsuccessful landing attempt, even on beaches where there is no opposing unit! All hostile coastal hexes are considered to have a defending force of some sort.

In CoS the AI is a little too in love with amphibious operations. If Beirut or Tobruk are open, for example, it will attempt an amphibious op to take the undefended city instead of sending ground forces overland, out of neighboring Egypt, to take the cities without risk!

That's the only subject I want to open with, I think it would be good if we cover topics individually. Ideally we'll be able to examine the three systems on a point by point basis.

[ November 26, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

One factor that I think "might" get left out of discussions about this game or that game, might be when the duration of the turn is not taken into account.

To add to the above comments, and mention A3R, the actions of a turn are also greatly impacted by the turn and how much time it actually represents.

In A3R the turn is a full 3 month season. If a naval unit is tasked with an invasion or the strategic relocation of units, it simply happens.

If it is wished to ship an army from England to Egypt, it happens if you have the naval assets to make it happen. The naval assets don't actually move though, they are just considered employed. The unit appears at its destination if nothing is done to impede its getting there.

Interceptions are just that, you either do or don't. and if you don't the naval units don't go anywhere. Ships basically are either in port and available, or in port and used.

It is possible this simplicity is as much an asset as anything else.

The smaller the increment of time though, the greater the degree of simulation that is required.

And that is what happens with some games. Some times the simulation exceeds what the game requires, and sometimes the simulation doesn't meet the needs of the game sufficiently.

You just can't conduct commando raids in A3R unfortunately, even though they had significant importance in the war.

[JerseyJohn]

Les

A great point -- actually, an essential one!

CoS is played in two month turns. During those two months action proceeds through impulses. Sometimes the Axis has the initiative and sometimes it's the Allies. It's possible for the same side to move twice in a row this way. Generally, this system has some similarities to the one used in Third Reich, as I remember the board version from thirty years ago.

Moving around the Cape of Good Hope takes one turn, two months game time, as opposed to normal strategic movement which lands a unit in it's new distant hex, where it cannot resume movement till the following turn.

HiCom uses monthly turns, a straightforward system without impulses, though each turn is devided into Air, Ground and Naval movement portions preceeded by strategic movement & merchant marine followed by an Industrial/Economic/Diplomatic (includes inteligence and espionage) phase.

In other words, each move is devided into distinct parts for different types of activities. Example: Ground units are loaded, transported and landed during the naval phase (which may or may not entail an interception/naval battle), then move and/or fight during the ground phase.

SC Hopefully no need to enter details at this forum.

[Edwin P.]

Although I can't comment on HiCom, in COS the AI seemed to adopt one of three primary strategies for the Axis - Sea Lion, Russian Invasion, or Conquer the Med. The allied AI would launch invasions in France and the Med. In summery, COS has a stronger "Strategic" AI than SC.

As JJ said this is probably due to the fact that naval movement and invasions are simpler for the AI to execute in COS.

[ November 26, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

One thing I forgot to mention is there are, in effect two sets of rules, one for the human and one for the AI!

The designers gave the AI numerous breaks and allowed double loading of transports, cheaper purchases, etc.. At first this seems unfair, but the alternative is the SC situation, where the AI tries vainly to duke it out on equal terms with a human opponent.

Agreed with Edwin, simpler situations and methods for the AI leads to a tougher game and a much greater challenge for the human player.

Generally speaking, HiCom, while incorporating many great and innovative ideas, is the toughest of all on the AI and usually becomes a micromanagement hell for human players.

Fine ideas that needed a lot more work and probably much better hardware than is even currently available to become truly feasable as a game system.

[ November 26, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Or ... How I remained with the wife but totally ignored her to fight the computer!

A companion Thread to Iron Ranger's Topic on CoS.

LMAO, i see u also love the bomb!

I agree with u and Edwin P., the Sea Zones system allows the COS AI to launch anphibious operations almost everywhere. U have to garrison all the ports, that takes a lot of corps and also every russian city u conquer to avoid partisans, and u have limited units. The only place u can leave ports ungarrison are the baltic as Hamburg blocks the Baltic, I left Hamburg ungarrison and u had a nightmare. In COS u cant operate units (only 1 unit & only 10 hexes away...), only 3 reserves the first impulse of a turn, so u better leave troops in france. U have to be aware that if its July and impulse nº 2 and the AI is launching D-Day Op. u cant send reinforcements for a long long time...

One weakness of the AI in Naval Warfare is that the AI only moves the fleet in the first impulse, so u can look for Sea Zones, get supremacy and slowly destroy the powerful allied fleet. Id like the AI to react EVERY impulse to my fleet moves as a human player would do.

I think the Sea Zones system in COS is just simple & perfect.

[JerseyJohn]

Codename

Yes, Strangelove is one of my favorite movies, defending it has even cost me a friendship or two among my more radical aquantences, but a friendship isn't very deep if it goes asunder because of a movie! One of things I love in that thing is the choice of names: General Jack D. Ripper who causes the end of civilized man, and Flight Leutenant Mandrake (as in the magician) who breaks the diabolical code! Great performances by all, especially Peter Sellers and Peter Sellers and Peter Sellers!

Agreed totally on your assessment of CoS and especially on the Fleet aspect; I could never resist whitling down the British Fleet when it set itself up first and was stuck that way for the entire turn. One weakness there was it's adherance to the North Atlantic zone despite it's having almost no special significance, and it's posting of naval units to the South Atlantic even if Gibraltar had fallen -- and a mighty rare (unrealistically so, I'm afraid) occurance that was!

I think Gibraltar itself ought to have been changed. It should have been invulnerable to sea attack, but much less difficult to capture via land and air attack, especially using the paratroop/(glider) unit.

[Codename Condor]

Some of yer friends diesnt like the movie? no problem, just change friends.

And yes, agreed. The North Sea and South Atlantic (if Gibraltar has fallen) shouldnt be taken into account by the AI, spliting the Fleet is a bad idea if u are moving the ships only the first turn...

Gibraltar is the key of the game, and tho i like it to be as tough as possible by land&sea&air.

[JerseyJohn]

My sentiments exactly regarding the friends; I've never understood how people can allow either political or religious opinions to dictate their personal relations, but it happens.

The situation I'm describing with Gibraltar in CoS, is where Germany has an Army Group, several armies a couple of air fleets and the paratroopers all hitting the place and it holds out turn after turn; considering each turn is two months that's a bit much! The same is true of Sevastopol and Leningrad.

In terms of game mechanics I think CoS was a little too extreme regarding fortified positions. In that respect I like SC's entrenchment system better. -- Of course, it also helps to have the engineer option. I think the way I'd have done is to say an engineer unit would need to be placed on a hex and an economic outlay put out before the hex could become fortified. That might have helped limit the over activity of the USSR fort constructing unit.

[Codename Condor]

Yes, agreed. The forts are way too good, u have to cut supplies off to be able to succeed. The fact is, im missing paratroopers, 1 is not enough!. Im hex editing COS now, modifing units and so and i think im gonna add a couple of Paratroopers to destroy those forts .

Great thing in COS and i hope a posibility in future SC2 is the option to allow 3 or more players: Allies/US/German/Italy/Russia, that with TCP/IP would be lots of fun. Bad thing COS doesnt allow Tcp/IP, COS is a fast game to play, but PBEM is possible. Would anyone be interested in a PBEM game? Up to Four factions could be something worth seeing!.

[Iron Ranger]

Would anyone be interested in a PBEM game? Up to Four factions could be something worth seeing!.

Maybe, but I have 0 understanding of the game and would need some time to read/test it out. Getting that many people to play PBEM would be interesting but very slow as some will be gone, working ect.

And yes, I want better graphics - where are the designers, they need to patch this baby right now!

[JerseyJohn]

"...where are the designers?"

Iron

A very interesting question. One of my friends has been trying to track down the HiCom people for years but nobody has ever seen them! The finished game was slipped under a door and periodically checks were slipped back in exchange.

I've heard of one game designer who doesn't use words any more and communicates with his fans in smileys!

"The fact is, im missing paratroopers, 1 is not enough!. Im hex editing COS now, modifing units and so and i think im gonna add a couple of Paratroopers to destroy those forts."

Condor

You're able to edit that thing? That would really be great; a scenario editor for CoS would make it a much better game. I'd edit that miserable Soviet engineer unit right out of existence!

[ November 26, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Codename Condor]

JerseyJohn

Yep, im editing COS now, I have implemented your Z-plan!! 1939: The 2 german carriers are in the production row! It will take 9 full turns. Also i have edited&improved the german panzers. I can modify any US troops and improve their efficieny and become marine units as well. I can send u the file formats if u want, pretty easy to mess with an hex editor if u know the file format keys.

[JerseyJohn]

Condor

Thanks, I'd greatly appreciate that.

johnofjersey@aol.com

-- I took it out of my profile not because of anyone here, there are a few birds I do regular battle with at the General Forum and I'm afraid one night I'll check my e-mail and a cobra will come crawling out of the monitor!

I think the Z-Plan is perfect for that arrangement exactly because of the production row; it beats by a longshot having to place everything out at the start.

BTW, in the scenarios that come with the game, did you notice that neither side can build the 1940 French Campaign forces coming out of the 1939 Polish Campaigh?! That kills me, you'd think the people putting it together would have interlaced the scenarios better than that.

[ November 26, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Codename Condor]

Ive just sent u the file JerseyJohn. With that its pretty simple to edit things. Well, i lie...Not as simple as an embedded editor , but if u are not going to do heavy changes is easy enough.

And, nope, i didnt notice that posibility about the french forces in different scenarios.

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by Iron Ranger:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Would anyone be interested in a PBEM game? Up to Four factions could be something worth seeing!.

Maybe, but I have 0 understanding of the game and would need some time to read/test it out. Getting that many people to play PBEM would be interesting but very slow as some will be gone, working ect.

And yes, I want better graphics - where are the designers, they need to patch this baby right now! </font>

[JerseyJohn]

Condor

Thanks for sending it, appreciated.

The scenario situation didn't involve the French, it was items like the Bismarck, Manstein, the paratrooper & engineer & an additional army or two for the Germans in the Spring of 1940 along with two airfleets etc. for the Italians ... none of which can be even remotely achieved at that stage from the 1939 scenario. For one thing, if they were begun in Sept 1939, they wouldn't be completed on time!

So probably my first project will be to get those things into production in that one. Can't get the game to work on this machine and can't use the DOS machine for the Internet, which puts me out of any sort of CoS PBEM.

Hoping to get to the scenario editor later in the night or tomorrow morning, sounds like fun.

[Edwin P.]

One item I liked about the COS AI is that it would really use different strategies to wage a war.

I would have liked to see SC follow a similar path, even if it was limited to the start of the Russian Campaign. Example: An early attack on Russia (before they annex the baltic states -about July 1940), normal attack, and a late attack (only after Russia prepares for war). Ideally the AI would use Fuzzy logic to decide on the optimal strategy - ie if France Falls quickly then Early Russian Attack 50%, if France falls late then Early Russian Attack 10%, if France falls really late then Early Russian Attack 0%.

Similarly the Allied AI could have used 3 or 4 really different strategies for the defense of France: Normal, Disband the French Navy and French Airforce, Full Defense with the UK producing units that are sent to defend France and Free French Forever.

I am looking forward to Sc2 including a more varied strategic aresenal for the AI.

Similarly;

Terif - Axis cant afford a two front war, they have to decide where to defend and where to attack. First they tried to wage an air war with only half of their AF in France and the other half in Russia. But Axis noticed soon that this is not a good idea, they have to concentrate or they will suffer heavy losses...

The AI at higher levels should be more inclined to concentrate its air units on one front instead of splitting them between France and Russia.

[ November 28, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[imported_von_Schmidt]

COS: taking fortresses (eg Leningrad).

Apart from massing the max amount of combat factors and the para's, there are a few other assets to use:

- Naval bombardment: will probably not kill strength point, but might affect morale

- Idem with Air: just keep attacking, despite the fact that the Air unit will lose strenght and not the defender. The defender *will* lose morale.

- Keep one or more Panzers behind the first line of attackers. After the 'combined' attack, move the Army/ Army group back and have the Panzers perform the 'single' attacks; despite low odds.

Basically, the way to overcome the defender in a frtress is not to destroy all the strength points, but to make the unit fail a morale check (leading to retreat or dissolve).

That's where the air and naval units are useful.

The panzer low-odds attacks are to create new morale checks on the defender.

von Schmidt

[JerseyJohn]

von_Schmidt

Excellent CoS suggestions; I've tried all of them and have to admit they work better against both Leningrad and Sevastopol than Gibraltar.

In one game I had German armies and the von Manstein army group all around the Rock, including the North African link hex, supported by two Luftflottes, the paratrooper and using panzer units in the manner you suggest, the fortress held out for three turns and on the fourth Russia prepared for war, despite a full Polish garrison and the fact it was still 1940.

That was one of the last times I played against it, as usual with these things, the game itself became historically idiotic.

What I'd really like is something that reliably reflects the true historical possibilities, and I have to see anything along those lines.

I think HiCom, in many respects came the closest, but it still needed far too much work to be considered a viable program.

[General Brock]

All this Clash of Steel talk made me install it again but ARRRGG getting that stupid runtime 200 error. I forget how to deal with it but I know the game works ok on my pc (win 98 op sys) I downloaded a patch cos1.1 but it did'nt cure the problem Any suggestions?

[Edwin P.]

COS: There's no question about FoW, it's understood that the computer sees you even if you choose not to see the computer armies. This is as it should be; either that or allow the AI a couple of days to analyze each of it's moves.

There are several ways to handle FOW for the AI;

1. No FOW bonus for the AI

2. Allow the AI to see ungarrisonned cities

3. Give the AI units a greater spotting range.

4. Give the AI a spotting Aircraft (AKA bomber) so that it has greater insight into enemy force dispositions. The AI will use this aircraft unit to spot enemy units, never to attack.

5. The AI can see all units when FOW is turned on.

Perhaps:

Beginner: No AI FOW Bonus

Intermediate: AI can see the status of all cities and ports and resources and the AI receives 1 AirIntelligence Unit (same spotting range as bomber)

Expert: AI can see the status of all cities and ports and resources + The AI receives 2 AirIntelligence Aircraft Units

AirIntelligence Unit - MaxStrength Value 5. Does not intercept. Spotting Range is 2+Strength+Long Range Tech Level. A damaged unit has a reduced spotting range. Cost 300MPP. Represents the allocation of air and army intelligence resources to focused battlefield intelligence gathering on a narrow front.

[ November 29, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

and will not send units to the arrows for round the Cape transport

Are you talking about SC? If so, you can send ships / transports via the arrows through the Suez canal? How?

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn was referring to the AI in SC. It will never send units to the Med/Egypt via the Transit Arrows.

[ November 29, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

JerseyJohn was referring to the AI in SC. It will never send units to the Med/Egypt via the Transit Arrows.

Yes but can we do it? And how?

I always wondered what does arrows were for.