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SC2- Ultra the Great Equalizer: [ For 1 / For Limited 2 / Against 0 ]


Edwin P.
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What was the effect of Ultra on the War?

JerseyJohn:

Extremely important. Prior to the revelation of this part of the war in the mid-70s, much of it's history made little or no sense. The Allies always seemed to know too much about what was going on behind enemy lines! Ultra's revelation answered a lot of questions. Ironically, the Germans reliec too heavily upon the encryption devices; other codes had not been cracked because so much attention was paid to Ultra, and the Axis, knowing nothing of this, rarely used the simpler codes that were actually completely safe! Instead they'd use Ultra, which was being read regularly in London.

Take Ultra out of the game and the UK is at a big disadvantage, though it would be difficult to equate this in game terms.

Proposed: The Ultra Event

Allied Effect:

1% Per Turn after "France Surrenders" that the UK captures a German Ultra Code Machine (about 26% per year).

This event can only occur once in each game.

With the Ultra Machine the Allied player has a 50% per turn to see the location of all German (not Italian) units; ie the Allied player has spotted all German units. This check is made every turn until the Axis player decides to change his codes.

Axis Effect:

The Axis player can decide to change his codes at any time by pressing a change codes button located on the reports menu. The act of changing your codes reveals the location of every German unit for one turn. If the Allied player has the Ultra Machine when the codes are changed then the Ultra effect is permanently disabled.

In addition, after the Allies capture an Ultra machine there is a 1% per turn that a German spy discovers that the Brits have the Ultra device and reports this to his superiors. This event shows up in a pop-up window for the Axis player.

Now the German player has to decide how often to change his codes knowing that to do so will reveal the location of all German units. If he does not change his codes and the Brits have captured an Ultra Machine then the Allies will know every move he makes. If he changes his codes and the Allies have not captured an Ultra machine then he will have needlessly revealed the location of all German units.

Allied AI:

The Allied AI chance per turn for capturing the Ultra Machine should vary by difficulty level: Novice 0%, Beginner 1%, Intermediate 2%, Expert 4%.

Discovery Pop-up

- Picture of Ultra Machine

- Headline: UK obtains German code machine.

Related Effects of Intelligence Tech

- Each level of UK Intelligence Tech increases the chance for the UK to obtain an Ultra device by 1% per level.

- Each level of Axis Counter Intelligence Tech reduces the chance for this event by 1% per level.

- Each level of Axis Intelligence Tech increases the chance that their agents will find out that the Allies have captured an Ultra Machine by 1% per level.

- Each level of UK Counter Intelligence Tech reduces the chance for Axis agents to discover that the Brits have an Ultra device by 1% per level.

Note: UK should begin the war with with Counter Intelligence Tech Level 1 due to their historical success in turning German agents.

Handicapping Effect

You can give an Allied Novice player Intelligence Tech Level 5 so he has a +5% per turn to capture an Ultra device.

Ultra Event is a Player Preference

As a default the Ultra Event is disabled in game setup, much like FOW, War in Siberia and Partisans.

Question: Should the spotting effect of Ultra limited to German units west of Warsaw?and exclude the Eastern Front as the Brits did not share this discovery with the Russians.

Question: Should the Ultra Effect have a chance to misidentify units? - As suggested by Panzer39

Example: 20% to misidentify a Unit - (50% Unit is not seen, 50% Identified as a Different Unit Type - Air Fleet as Bomber, Armor as Corps or Army, Army as Corps or Armor)

Example: 2% (1 in 50 hexes) to falsely see a unit of a random type in a hex where there is no unit. So in 200 hexes you could expect to see 4 units that are not actually present.

Question: Is making all German units visible to the Allies too much? If too much, how many units should the Allies see?

50% Per Turn to see:

Only HQ Units?

Only see 50% of Allied units?

Only see 50% of Land Units?

Or should the % per turn be reduced to 25% (1 in 4 turns)

[ November 01, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

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I think there's something to this, but seeing every unit might be a bit much.

I'm not an expert on Ultra, but the difficulty with intelligence is the time it takes to decode it, distribute it to the relevant people, for them to then read it all and act on it.

Perhaps just a sighting of German HQs, and their movement, if any, might be better.

The reason being that the positioning and movement of HQs does give away long term plans, while still leaving enough to the imagination and guesswork of the allied player. In other words, it gives them a clue but not the whole story.

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I have to agree with the limited aspect of this idea. Otherwise it is great.

Another possibility would be to get faulty intelligence. The allied player sees a corps that might be an army or sees something that is not there at all. Maybe a percentage counter could be provided on the unit to tell how sure what your seeing is correct.

Also, changing codes should cost something but not the reavealing of all Axis units. I don't follow how chaning codes automatically means they are broken.

[ November 01, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Panzer39 ]

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Perhaps just a sighting of German HQs, and their movement, if any, might be better.

I lean against this option as I felt that Ultra msut be a war changing event for the allies on the Western Front. Limiting Ultra to HQ units would largely affect the Eastern Front and deprive Ultra event of its main benefit - knowledge of the location of enemy troops o nthe Western Front.

I also felt that Ultra should allow the allies to counter a huge production bonus of the Axis. By revealing the location of Enemy troops west of Warsaw or Berlin(?) it does this. But perhaps the Allies should only be able to see the location of German troops every 4 or five turns. If so then reduce the per turn chance for an Ultra effect from 50% to 25% or 20% in the Editor.

It should also be noted that Ultra event would be very rare. There is only a 1% per turn of it occuring. If Germany invests in Counter Intell it can reduce this chance to zero. Of course investing in counter Intel means that they do not have 250MPP or 500MPP to invest in something else. Thus possibly reducing the Germany Tech Advantage.

Also, changing codes should cost something but not the reavealing of all Axis units. I don't follow how chaning codes automatically means they are broken.

After reading JerseyJohn's post I felt that there had to be a serious cost to Germany chainging its codes. Otherwise the Axis player would change their codes every quarter just to avoid the affects of a possible Ultra.

By making the changing of codes contingent upon the revelation of the location of all units makes code changing a serious option, something that is not to be considered lightly. It also reflects the fact that Germany during WWII until the very end continued to rely upon Ultra machine.

Another possibility would be to get faulty intelligence. The allied player sees a corps that might be an army or sees something that is not there at all. Maybe a percentage counter could be provided on the unit to tell how sure what your seeing is correct.

I like this idea. Ultra for all its advantages was not perfect. That is why I assigned it only a 50% per turn of providing intelligence. But by providing faulty intellience it would also make it more realistic and more interesting.

May I suggest

1> 50% Ultra provides partial intelligence on each unit (50% it does not see the unit and 50% it can not identify the unit type, so all that a palyer sees is a grey square in a hex - it may be a Corps or Army or Armor or Air Fleet or Bomber.)

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Great stuff and Edwin very flattered by that introduction -- wish I'd have hit a d instead of c in that one word, but I've got thousands of worse typos and mispellings so I should learn to live with it.

While sharing Blashy's enthusiasm for this, I also have to agree with Panzer and Billthat this idea would, if taken to it's extreme, be a real breaker for the Axis player.

Fortunately, there were many complications:

1) Some Allied commanders, such as Montgomerey, shunned ULTRA information because they couldn't be told it's origin. Accordingly they only used information who's source was known to them; usually their own recon. Which negated it's effect in many battlefield commands.

-- I don't know how we can get that into the game.

2) The German Enigma machine operators did their best to help Blechly Park by not randomly turning their controls after sending and receiving transmissions. Resetting their controls would have very greatly reduced the eaves dropping ability to gather information. It wasn't as though the Germans didn't know this; the random turn was standard procedure and part of their training, but most of the time it wasn't done. Incredible. A miracle of recurring negligence! :D

3) The German Navy tended to have particularly bad luck in losing perfectly functional machines to the Allies. They did so on weather ships and also on U-boats. Now, it isn't as though it were a huge object; it would have been the equivalent of tossing a portable over the side and into the ocean, never to be seen again, except by bottom dwelling sea creatures. Instead the machines remained where they were, sometimes with half thought out sabotage attempts, and were captured shortly afterwards. Making matters worse was that Naval HQ never considered those machines as captured and always assumed they'd been destroyed.

4) Some major benefits of Ultra concerned the U-boats, the formation of U-boats, and the route of convoys to North Africa. These would be difficult areas to get into the game, especially considering the U-boat war is almost nonexistant.

I like the idea of flash revealings of German armies and air fleets. It should be separate from revealing naval units, as they had their own inteligence transmissions -- and usually gave themselves away! And also it should not automatically reveal Italian units as that info wasn't generally transmitted via the Enigma route. The Italian codes were generally safe!

It shouldn't effect the Eastern Front at all. The Soviets would have believed information given them by Hitler over info that provided by either Churchill or Roosevelt. Also, the USSR had the best spies on earth and generally didn't need anyone else's info -- they already had whatever info they wanted from their own clerks in Washington!

Hard things to figure out in game terms but I hope you accomplish it and Hubert uses it as an option. Perhaps a simple slide gizmo determining how much inteligence on the enemy is available would be a good way of abstracting it.

Hoping to get to those other ideas in the other two threads tomorrow.

[ November 02, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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JerseyJohn

Thanks for your comments. They are much appreciated. As you said getting it into game turns will be an interesting exercise.

JerseyJohn -It shouldn't effect the Eastern Front at all.
How would you define the Eastern Front? Every hex east of Warsaw? or east of Berlin?

JerseyJohn - And also it should not automatically reveal Italian units as that info wasn't generally transmitted via the Enigma route. The Italian codes were generally safe!

Agreed - It should only affect German units.

Panzer39 - Maybe the Axis could be charged some mpp's to change codes
How much would you charge? or would it be better to say that if the Germans reveal their code they reveal the location of 25%/50%/75% of all units West of Warsaw?

JerseyJohn - Some Allied commanders, such as Montgomerey, shunned ULTRA information because they couldn't be told it's origin. Accordingly they only used information who's source was known to them; usually their own recon. Which negated it's effect in many battlefield commands.

-- I don't know how we can get that into the game.

Perhaps - No Ultra Effect for units within 5 hexes of specific commanders.

Or as stated above by Panzer39

Another possibility would be to get faulty intelligence. The allied player sees a corps that might be an army or sees something that is not there at all.

[ November 02, 2003, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

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Edwin

I'd say East of Berlin so as not to give away initial Axis positions prior to Barbarossa.

In an extension of these thoughts, the British, while very good at finding out German information, were themselves very poor about keeping their own information secret. With the worlds most inept spies, Germany managed to find out almost anything they wanted through the simple expedient of reading British and American newspapers and evesdropping on phonecalls or wireless transmissions. So, it's hard to say who know more about the other.

The machine so many German Naval Officers could not toss overboard before capture; the rotors so many German Operators didn't bother to reset at random values after transmissing or receiving messages.

ecm.gif

The British were very good at planting misinformation for the Germans to find out about, often through leaks deliberately planted in Madrid, Gibraltar or Switzerland!

Here's an example of something Germany did throughout the war to find out what was really going on. U-boat commanders would come back from missions with lists of ships and tonnages they'd sank and the Kriegsmarine would duly credit them with the appropriate kills. Meanwhile they'd quietly find out the exact size and name of the freighter sunk, as well as what cargo was sent to the bottom, by reading the N. Y. and London Times as well as the Wallstreet Journal, looking for, among other things, insurance claims on lost freight!

The only game of this type that attemps to use inteligence advantages as a factor in battles is High Command. As you probably know, that system allows investment in inteligence for specific nations and also for counter inteligence, using the net remainder to determine which of the two has the edge. Individual units are then revealed in greater or lesser degrees of accuracy and the info becomes more accurate as it remains longer at the same location!

Additionally, from time to time a message will appear that an inteligence advance will result in your side having a combat advantage against one or more of your enemies for that turn. You don't know when your enemies have a similar edge.

I think the HiCom approach is exceptionally good.

[ November 02, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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There are four issues regarding intelligence;

1. Breakthru war changing event such as the UK discovering the Ultra Machine and keeping it a secret. Covered above

2. Intelligence - how much does a country spend on gathering intelligence

3. CounterIntelligence - how much does a country devote to counter intelligence.

4. Partisan Support - how much effort does a country devote to fostering and supporting partisan groups behind enemy lines.

Perhaps SC2 could have a detailed model that gives the players more control over this area.

Example

Intelligence - Increases the chance to determine the location of Enemy units and the chance for the Ultra Event. Costs 250MPP per Level in Intelligence. Unlike a Research investment you receive this level immediately upon spending the MPPs for it. You can reclaim investments in this area at a 50% cost.

Example: Intelligence Level 1 - See location of 3% of all units (if spotted 15% for faulty intelligence per Counter Intelligence level - 50% Not seen or 50% Incorrect Unit Type)

Counter Intelligence - Reduces reliability of enemy intelligence and affects the chance for partisans and intelligence and related events - ie Ultra Effect. Costs 250MPP per Level in Counter Intelligence.

Increases chance for Faulty Intelligence by 15% per level (Maximum Level 5 - 75%).

Decreases chance for partisans in occupied countries by 3% per level.

Partisan Support - Increases the chance for partisan units in enemy occupied countries (not territories). Costs 250MPP per Level.

Example: UK Partisan Support increases the chance for partisans in Axis Conquered Spain, Greece, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Russia, Iraq by

Level 1: +5%, Level 2 +10%, Level 3 +15%, Level 4 +20%, Level 5 +25% per turn.

Increases chance for partisans in Yugoslavia by 2% per level.

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I like the idea of funding partisans in occupied countries. Shouldn't be overdone, and it's main effect could be in minor reduction in Axis MPP income.

As to armed risings, well I've always thought it a bit strange that as Axis you can invade all countries except the USSR and Russia, and just leave them totally empty afterwards, with no negative effects from the conquered population.

I think there should be a rule that every conquered country should be occupied by at least one unit from the occupying power. If this wasn't complied with, then the MPP income from this country's resources should fall.

There could also be a % chance of an uprising should allied forces enter the country.

To stop raiders triggering off invasions, maybe such an effect could be limited to occuring only when an allied HQ enters the country.

So, for instance a corps landing in France will have no effect, but when an allied HQ lands in France there will be a chance for a rising (one 5 strength partisan unit, with effects on Axis supply just as in Russia).

Sorry for the digression. Back to Ultra: if something along these lines is introduced then it will require some good programming, otherwise it could be a hackers delight for creating a FOW sniffer for SC2. Something I'm sure none of us would like to see.

[ November 02, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

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Bill101

Lets not overlook the fact, that conquered nations do have occupying forces in them, its just that the units are too small to represent in SC. And the fact that its a occupied nation (implying less than full cooperation), is also why those nations only generate, at best, 80% of thier MPP income.

The idea about resistance funding, along with it incorporating Commando raids, would give the opportunity for those occupied nations to even further reduce the MPP income. Assuming its successful, when you get your nation reports, it can simply state that such and such a city or port or mine was sabatouged and suffered so many points of damage. You could even have a PBEM replay show a small "explosion" to represent that act. Damage could also be inflicted on ships in ports as well as the supply levels, which would represent damage to the railroads.

The Axis counter to the above could be labelled Security & Anti-Partisan Operations. And like the above would represent Commandos (including US Rangers), this would represent the German Brandenburg Regiment, SS Fallsehirmjager Bn 500 and even the Landesschutzen Battalions.

Yugo and Russia actually raised the resistance to a higher level (something France never did), where Partisan units (today we would call them guerrillas) actually took the field for combat operations against conventional units. While we are still in the realm of units that are too small to properly represent at the SC level, the SC partisan units are a simple effective compromise. In that respect, you now have to counter them with actual SC units.

Of course, I'd hope that SCII would use a different method of generating those Partisans, since any veteran SC player will simply plop a unit on the "partisan hex" to stop Partisans from generating.

Hence, I don't agree that we need to have units in occupied nations to stop uprisings. Nor do I think that any invasion should cause a "uprising".

Since this topic is about Ultra, let me add one point about Intelligence. Intelligence never has 100% accuracy, even with broken codes. Some of the reasons were given above, as well as there being others. So any game reflection should reflect the ability to uncover more than normal, but in no way should have 100% accuracy. I'd also like to say I agree with JerseyJohn, in that High Command had the best method in any Strategy or Grand Strategy game to date. SCII would be off to a fine start if it used those concepts.

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HI-Com Intelligence

Jersey-John: The only game of this type that attemps to use inteligence advantages as a factor in battles is High Command. As you probably know, that system allows investment in inteligence for specific nations and also for counter inteligence, using the net remainder to determine which of the two has the edge. Individual units are then revealed in greater or lesser degrees of accuracy and the info becomes more accurate as it remains longer at the same location!

Additionally, from time to time a message will appear that an inteligence advance will result in your side having a combat advantage against one or more of your enemies for that turn. You don't know when your enemies have a similar edge.

From the HC Manual

The intelligence allocated to a country by a player can be countered by the opposing player. In order to account for this, the computer computes two numbers. The first number is 1/2 the intelligence allocation to the country and the second number is the intelligence allocation to the country less 1/2 of the opposing player's intelligence allocation to the country. The computer then takes the larger of these two numbers as the player's effective intelligence allocation to the country. In this way, if the opposing player allocates intelligence to the country, then an equal amount, up to 1/2 of the total, of the player's intelligence allocation will be used to counter the opposing player's allocation.

Intelligence allocated to a country can have 2 different types of effects. The first has to do with detection and the second has to do with sabotage. Detection can occur in any country that the player has targeted. Sabotage, on the other hand, can only occur in countries that have been conquered by the opposing player. For detections, full investment in intelligence in a country results in a 10% chance of detection for each undetected stack of units in that country. The detection may be reported as having occurred due to intelligence or underground activities.

Proposed Revised Ultra and Intelligence

1. Nations can invest in intelligence by Country/Region using a menu similar to the Tech Investment Menu

</font>

  • Norway & Sweden</font>
  • Spain & Portugal</font>
  • Denmark & Low Countries & Switzerland</font>
  • Russia & Finland</font>
  • Turkey</font>
  • Greece & Albania & Bulgaria & Romania</font>
  • Vichy & France</font>
  • Egypt & Iraq & Libya</font>
  • United States & Canada</font>
  • United Kingdom</font>
  • Yugoslavia</font>
  • Germany & Hungary</font>
  • Italy</font>

2. Nations can purchase 1 level of intelligence in a country/region for 40MPP. Each level of intelligence gives you a 2% per hex to see what is in that hex. 200MPP invested in a county/region means that you have a 10% per hex to spot what is in a hex each turn.

2a. Each level of Intelligence invested in a county also has a 1% to sabotage any city hex, resource hex, port hex, ship in port or air unit per turn. The sabotged unit or hex takes one point of damage. If a ship is sabotaged there is a 5% that it takes an additional 4 points of damage.

3. Ultra event adds 10% to current intelligence level against German land and air units in each country West of Berlin (France, Norway, Spain, Denmark, Low Countries, Portugal, Sweden, Vichy France, Ireland, UK and Switzerland, Italy)

Example: You have 200MPP invested in intelligence in France. This gives you a 10% per turn to see each unit in France. With the Ultra event this would increase to 20%. (1 in 5 units are identified).

Example: You have 0 invested in intelligence in Norway. This gives you a 0% per turn per unit to spot each unit in Norway. With Ultra this would increase to 10%.

4. Germany can change its codes to disable the Ultra effect by selecting the change codes button on the reports menu. The action of changing codes means that the other side has a 20% to spot each unit of the country that changed its codes. (ie 1 in 5 units is spotted).

5. Partisan Support

Players can invest in partisan support by country for Russia, Finland, Spain & Portugal, Norway & Sweden, Yugoslavia, Greece, Ireland, , UK, Turkey and Russia. Germany can also support partisans in Iraq and Ireland. This investment affects the chance for post surrender partisans.

Each level of partisan support purchased after a country's surrender costs 100MPP and increases the chance of partisans per turn by 5% (double the chance in winter months). Each level of support purchased before a country's surrender but while it is still at war costs 50MPP.

It is easier to establish weapon stashes and train partisan units before a country surrenders.

Example: The US invests 500MPP in partisan support for Russia after it surrenders. There is a base 25% per turn that a Russian partisan unit appears (1 in 4 turns). (The US could have reduced this cost to 250MPP by investing in Russian partisan support before it surrendered).

Example: The UK invests 100MPP in partisan support for Greece after it is attacked by Italy but before it surrenders to purchase 2 levels of partisan support. There is a 10% per turn that a Greek partisan unit appears (1 in 10 turns) after the Greek government surrenders.

Suggested Change: For post surrender partisans (ie partisan units after a country has surrendered) Each city that a partisan unit controls increases the chance for a new partisan unit by 15%. Each national partisan unit over 3 in a country increases the chance for a new partisan unit by 10%.

Example: If the base chance for a partisan unit in Russia is 15% and partisan units control 2 cities then the chance for a new partisan unit is 15% + 2 * 15% or 45%.

Example: There are 5 partisan units in Russia. the chance for a new partisan unit is base chance (15%) + (2 * 10%) or 35%

Example: In Russia there are 5 partisan units that control two cities. The chance for a new partisan unit is 15% Base + 30% for two cities + 20% for units above 3. This equals 65% per turn.

If the chance for partisan units is 100% or greater then 3 partisan units are created each turn amd their is a 5% per turn that the partisans mobilize a full HQ unit to support their efforts.

Successful partisan units find it easier to recruit new members.

[ November 03, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

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Bill, Shaka and Edwin

Read these posts with great interest just now. Very glad we've all got similar thoughts along these lines.

Shaka and Edwin, my thanks for looking into the HiCom model. I agree totally with Shaka and think it would work perfectly in this game.

Edwin, it's incredible how quickly you put that on the screen! You astound me, my friend. ;)

JP Wagner, Yes, I think there is a sense of the inteligence aspect already in the game, but I think what there is becomes obscured by airial sightings. It should be more fun if the concept were expanded upon.

Out the door; really glad I checked here first. smile.gif

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Shaka wrote: "... Nor do I think that any invasion should cause a "uprising"."

But it is historically accurate. Consider the strikes in the French railway system that coincided with the allied invasion, the rising in Paris and other areas when the allies broke out from Normandy.

Looking further east we have Operation Tempest in Poland culminating in the bloody and hard fought two month struggle for Warsaw.

Then at the end of the war the Czechs rose up in Prague. While none of these were very successful, they all hindered the Axis war effort.

I think that factoring these things in somehow would be good, and they are all events that occured when a major allied force was moving into the vicinity.

The exact method needs to be worked out, and I think that this thread is moving towards that.

[ November 03, 2003, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

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Building on Bill101's comments;

Allied units entering an Axis conquered country add 10% to a country's chance for a partisan unit if the base chance is greater than zero.

Example: If Allied units enter Yugoslavia (base chance 15%) then the chance for Yugoslavia partisans increase from 15% per turn to 25% per turn.

Example: If Allied units enter Spain (base chance 0%) then the chance for Spanish remains at 0% as the base partisan chance for partisans is zero (unless the allies have invested in partisan support for this country.)

[ November 03, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

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Alot depends on the definition you want to give "uprising".

And again, I think you're losing sight of the scale of SC. While uprisings, revolts, etc may have had some effects on a localized area, I don't see that it would concern us at the scale SC represents.

But let me get back to the original point I was trying to make. Between your suggestions and Edwin P's percentages, your uprising effect was allowing partisan units to be formed because Allied units had entered that country. I believe that is the wrong cause and effect relationship.

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It's more the activation of latent hostility to the Axis occupier.

I agree that these are small scale things. Since yesterday I've thought that a 5 strength partisan unit is a bit strong, but what I love about the Russian partisans in this game is their effect on Axis supply. If something like that could be programmed in, then I'd be happy.

I just think that it would be great to give the resistance outside of Russia and Yugoslavia a presence in this game. Not a massive one, but just a little something.

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Shaka wrote: But let me get back to the original point I was trying to make. Between your suggestions and Edwin P's percentages, your uprising effect was allowing partisan units to be formed because Allied units had entered that country. I believe that is the wrong cause and effect relationship.

I don't think that this is the wrong cause and effect relationship. An uprising is only going to occur in either of two circumstances in Axis occupied territory:

1) Liberation is near at hand (all the examples I gave were evidence of this).

2) Out of desperation. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising is an example of this. They were heroes, but they had no chance of victory.

I accept your points about scale, but I don't think that I've got the relationship the wrong way round.

[ November 04, 2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

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