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Unit movement changing hex colors - I don't like it.


KDG
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I wish that units that were amphib landing, or partisons, didn't change the color of the map, once they move across it. This takes away from landing in certain areas because the other player can see that units are in the area even when FOW is on.

The purpose of FOW is to not know where the other player is unless you scout, or use Jets and Bombers to see the area. Ships don't leave trails, why should units. If an army can't see the unit, then don't let them see the color trail.

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I don't mind the trails, and I don't mind a country changing color, but the way it is now, there is no way to sneak up on a city, either in Africa,behind enemy lines, or anywhere. This means these cities can be unguarded until the color change is seen, then you just operate a unit to the city.

Your opponent can see the unit color trails before he even sees the unit. Why give units limitations to spotting when these are completely ignored by the color trails.

What I'm trying to say is that you know where a unit is going even before seeing that unit based on the color trail being left.

It is a giant beacon saying "here I am, I'm about to attack your undefended city".

[ February 21, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: KDG ]

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The real question here is "How should recon work?". IMO recon is a huge part of the game. If you know what the opponent is doing, you have a better chance of countering it.

Should a city/industry/port be able to conduct recon one hex away? I think it makes sense. After all, if a city is controlled, there are likely some friendly forces there - perhaps a battalion or regiment, not a corps.

Because recon is so important, it is another reason making air power so critical. Its been discussed how air can do so much damage to ground troops, picks up experience fast, and can increase the number of attacks substantially on a less accessible hex. Others have pointed out that air units cost over 3x what corps do so it makes sense they are so powerful.

Air has two other huge advantages besides allowing multiple attacks: huge recon radius and the ability to operate across the world instantly.

But I digress. From a "recon" standpoint I think it makes sense that cities/ports "see" the hex beside them, including colour change.

But I agree on the criticism of colour changes on non-spotted areas. (In one game I saw Finland changing Russian Red, which tipped me off to troop movements where I didn't have any units who would see it). Perhaps FOW rules should apply to colour change: ie: colour only changes if a unit or city hex spots it. Of course, this only makes the recon feature of air even more valuable.

Then perhaps it doesn't matter so much. Perhaps armies of the size and scale used in SC are not "ghost recon" troops that can sneak up on unsuspecting cities... smile.gif

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Originally posted by KDG:

but the way it is now, there is no way to sneak up on a city

You are loseing site of the scale of the game. There is no way to sneak up a army through an enemy country period. You can send one to harry behind the lines but it will become unsupplied and do nothing more than become unsupplied and cost the enemy some operational costs to counter.

Don't lose track of the size of the theatre. This is not a tactical scale.

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Originally posted by KDG:

I don't mind the trails, and I don't mind a country changing color, but the way it is now, there is no way to sneak up on a city, either in Africa,behind enemy lines, or anywhere. This means these cities can be unguarded until the color change is seen, then you just operate a unit to the city.

Your opponent can see the unit color trails before he even sees the unit. Why give units limitations to spotting when these are completely ignored by the color trails.

What I'm trying to say is that you know where a unit is going even before seeing that unit based on the color trail being left.

It is a giant beacon saying "here I am, I'm about to attack your undefended city".

I beleive this is a Strategic simulation. You're just not going to "sneek up" on a city. By the same token, you're not going to have an invasion go un-noticed.
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Yeah, you can't sneak up on a city, but you can sneak into Pearl Harbor, you can sneak where D-Day lands, and many other ex. that the war historians would know. Sneaking happened all the time in WWII.

If someone doesn't defend a city at all, why shouldn't you be able to sneak into it. Why even play with FOW.

I believe one of the purposes of FOW is to allow sneaking. The other side doesn't know where or when the attack is coming (unless they look on the map and see the color changing).

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Originally posted by KDG:

I believe one of the purposes of FOW is to allow sneaking. The other side doesn't know where or when the attack is coming (unless they look on the map and see the color changing).

FoW is not for sneak attacks (if we talk about Grand Strategy wargame, and not tactical, squad based wargames) but to simulate what you cannot see beyond your frontline...

Unless you expore, you don't know...

- Where enemy ships are...

- How well prepared for "D-Day" the Allies are...

- What surprises lies behind the russian frontline...

- How many Air Fleets Germany has in France...

- etc...

Agreed the change of color is sometime a spoiler... Although it's funny to see the constant switch grey/brown in Russia... ;)

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After thinking about this some more, I'll add another comment. Spotting by actual units should provide more useful information than spotting by resources with no units in them. Otherwise, there's no reason ALL controlled hexes shouldn't be able to spot enemy units. This is already done indirectly with hexes changing color, so we're getting some information from whoever is there controlling the hexes. This is acceptable at this scale.

The question is whether resources should have full spotting capability and KDG may have a point, at least for fleets and transports off the coast beyond a 12-mile LOS visibility. Units would appear when they attack or land. This should be reconsidered. What about ground units adjacent to unoccupied resources? It would certainly add to the FOW challenge if all you got was a hex color change and no other information about what type of unit was out there. This forces you to use garrison units and air cover to see what's going on.

So how about various FOW options for SC2?

1 - No FOW

2 - Limited FOW for AI (to make AI more challenging)

3 - Current FOW

4 - Enhanced FOW with no resource spotting

Some folks have complained about surprise encounters with FOW, so that's another contender for an on/off option. There may be a couple more ideas out there.

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