Desaix Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Hello, So following up my thoughts on more historical and balanced human vs human scenario, I just have done a campain especialy for this... I ran it a couple of time on hot seat or vs computer but now it needs real tests to be improved It is a different logic games as tech and war entries are quite different, so new startegies are needed... So if anybody is up to test it pbem or Tcp ... Send me a mail if you want the campain file... If some of you can also host on a web site it would be nice to... Desaix [ January 30, 2005, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 So here are the notes coming with scenario: 1939 Human versus Human Historical orientation mod (3H) By Desaix, version BETA 0.1 (8 Dec 2004) Email: desaix1789@yahoo.ca *** Please sent me any comments and suggestions as it is still a BETA and needs tons of tests *** This scenario is specially designed for human vs. human games to have a better game play in matter of balance and strategies options and also to give more historical flavour. This scenario has taken many of its elements from: - Historicity Mod Version: 1.1 by Dgaad (DG) - 1939 Fall Weiss Campaign - v1.04 by Bill Macon (BM) Thanks to them for their good ideas and deep knowledge of historical deployments. Texts from their changes have been used like it was written with their initial at end of the quote. The currently used bid system of 1/5/20 needs bids at least over 200 to have balanced games. This scenario will hopefully be balanced at lower bids and hopefully in a 1/5/10 system. It also adds more focus on the naval aspect and on the African theatre to allow more strategic options and for more historical flavour. UNITED STATES ------------------- USA starts with 3 research points. The US had excellent research capacity that was easily turned to wartime functions, the most notable being the Manhattan Project. (DG) FRANCE ------------------- No Free French option is recommended, as French were not a significant military factor after the fall of France. It also prevents the gamey escape strategy for stronger D day. Algerian Corps has +1 experience. These troops were highly competent and highly valued. The Germans suffered a high proportion of casualties in battle against them in early June, 1940 -- after it already appeared to everyone that France was going to lose. (DG) All Maginot units are given an entrenchment value of 4. (BM) French "Alpes" unit added to mountain hexes bordering Italy; corps, strength 7, entrenched 2. (DG) French Fleet in the Atlantic moved to Bordeaux. (DG) POLAND ------------------- Army Pomorze changed to start strength 8. Polish mobilization was not completed at war's start. (DG) Southernmost Polish corps has an entrenchment value of 2. The Katowice and Krakow areas were heavily fortified. (DG) Polish units in the "Danzig Corridor" moved to reflect more accurate Polish deployments. The Poles for political reasons had to adopt a "frontier defence" strategy which included defending the Corridor, since the control of the Corridor was the alleged reason for the conflict in the first place. The option of defence in depth, which was considered by the Polish command, was rejected for this political reason. The Poles did not expect to be able to hold the Corridor indefinitely; however no one expected the effects of a Blitzkrieg operation -- total collapse of Polish resistance in a matter of weeks. (Note: these deployments will make it easier for the Germans to get to Warsaw in one fell swoop, which is what in fact happened; advanced German units reached the outskirts of Warsaw on September 6th). (DG) BRITAIN ------------------- Western Desert Force Tank Group added in Egypt with an initial strength of 1, making it essentially useless. However, it can be built up rapidly and saves the British the trouble of having to build one and run the Med gauntlet. (DG) Wavell HQ added to Egypt with strength of 4. (DG) British 8th Army added to Egypt with strength of 1. (DG) All British troops in Egypt are positioned far from ports so if Britain decides a complete retreat from Egypt, it will take a bite of time to process. Bomber fleet starts with strength 6 and 2.0 experience for more efficiency and to reduce costs of operations for bombing over Germany. It will also allow a better increase of bombing operations. Strategic bombers repositioned to prevent deployment to Ireland on Turn 1 for U-boat spotting. (BM) Britain starts with Heavy Bomber level 1 to give more impact to bombing strategies. British "BEF" Army added to Manchester with strength of 3, experience 1. The BEF was deployed in October 1939. There is no way to do this in the game unless this is done. Experience rating reflects extraordinary quality of this core of British troops, which will be dissipated by reinforcement (British mobilization drafts). (DG) All British Naval Surface units in the game are Experience-1 at start (this does NOT include carriers). (DG) British get an additional Cruiser Unit located in the south Atlantic with strength of 4. This represents the Lend Lease destroyers given to Britain in 1940. It will take some time to move this unit up to Britain where it can be reinforced to full strength (representing the need to incorporate these destroyers into the Royal Navy). In sum, this unit should be ready for operations by mid-1940. It does NOT get the experience bonus that other RN surface units get because the destroyers sent to Britain were old WW1 tubs. (DG) Royal Canadian Navy Cruiser starts at St. Johns in Canada at strength 5. (BM) It does NOT get the experience bonus of other RN units. IRELAND ------------------- Ireland starts as Allies member. It reflects the general Commonwealth economic support to England and prevents the unhistorical plunder of Ireland by Britain. GERMANY ------------------- Luftflotte I and IV have +1 experience. This represents the extensive experience the Luftwaffe had already gotten in Spain. (DG) German 9th, 12th and 23rd Corps, Germany's western frontier are given either +3 or +2 entrenchment values. Also the 23 corps is relocated closer to the Rhine and gets river benefit. These corps and the German 9th Corps in Essen also have their strength changed to either 8 or 9, to represent the fact that divisions along the Western frontier were not fully mobilized at war's start. They were division cadres, largely, in the process of mobilization. (DG) German Rundstedt HQ is given initial experience of 1 (original: 0) to represent the traditions of the Prussian General staff, which resulted in a large body of competent and experienced officers in the German army. Also, the theories of Guderian and others gave the German Wehrmacht a confidence in novel operations that other armies lacked at the time. The Bock unit was not modified, because Guderian's changes were opposed by more than half the General Staff! (DG) German panzer groups set to experience 1 (original : 0) to reflect the novel organizing concepts of Panzer Warfare, which gave the Wehrmacht a concentration of panzer units and a solid doctrine on use of them in battle, a doctrine which had been taught and practised extensively since 1934, and to some extent used in real battle in Spain. (DG) All German Armies (but not Corps) are set to experience 1. Essentially the reason for this is that there is little question that German infantry units were generally much more effective than equal numbers of any other nation's infantry, at least in 1939-40 and beyond. As these Armies take casualties and get reinforced, particularly after an invasion of Russia, for example, this will be of less effect. (DG) Luftflotte II is decreased in starting strength to 5. The German air forces were not fully mobilized at the start of the Polish Campaign. (DG) Germany starts with Advanced Subs tech level 3 to reflect the 25 years development of sub doctrine which began in WW1 and carried through largely without interruption to WW2. (~DG) Sub Fleets in Atlantic set to strength 12, and moved more to the northwest. Sub fleet in Baltic set to strength 7. (DG) All sub fleets start at +4 experience due to their experienced crew at the beginning of the war. Start location of one German Cruiser unit changed to historical deployment near Danzig. (DG) "Bismarck" Battleship starts in Kiel at strength 2. (BM) Germany starts at Rocket level 3. Cost of research and unit building is not worth in the game. This change will allow Germany to have units to send V1-V2 to London for a reasonable construction price. Germany starts with a bomber fleet at strength 2. Historically, Germans were able to bomb Scapa Flow naval base, near Scotland, from German air bases in March 1940. Germany starts with Industrial Production tech level set to 1 (original: 0). German industry was well prepared for the war by Hitler's economic polices in the late 30's. USSR ------------------- USSR gets Heavy Tanks-2. While on a pure technology level, in game terms, the USSR should probably get Heavy Tanks-3, the reality was that Soviet armor organization and tactics left much to be desired in 1939-1941. When the Germans attacked in 1941, the Soviets had realized that their armor doctrine and tactics were unwieldy, and were in the process of changing over -- unfortunately the Germans struck at the moment these changes were about to take place so they could not be implemented until the Germans were checked later in 1941. (DG) USSR starts at Rocket level 2 so Rocket building might be worth it and may add more historical behaviours. USSR initial Industrial Production tech level set to 4 (original: 2). USSR starts at 64% of war readiness (original: 30%). USSR has been a major player in European geopolitics since the end of the XVIIIth century. This war readiness level is more realistic as Russia wouldn't let any country size Europe without reacting. It will also bring Russia into war around historical dates if historical strategy is chosen. USSR starts with 500 extra MPPs at mobilization. Comments on the Beta strategies -------------------------------------- - Battle of the Atlantic is more balanced and U boat is a real threat, Allies should proceed more cautiously or risk higher casualties. Germany has a higher naval potential (and sea air coverage) and can decide more easily to go for a naval strategy for Sealion as historically planned. Early British research should include sonar or risk tougher challenges if this option is chosen by Germany. - Allies start with a better foothold on Egypt that may allow them to hold it as the time window before Russian entry is shorter for Axis. - Poland historical positions will lead Poland to fall in historical time frame. - Superior German units will put more pressure on France that shouldn't be able to hold much after summer 40. U boats in Atlantic will also pressure France to use its fleet for Atlantic instead of disbanding it. - The superior German fleet and air fleet will definitely set more pressure on England that is more vulnerable to Sealion. Defence of England will probably be more on focus instead of massive corps dumping in France. Enjoy this scenario... Desaix [ December 08, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Desaix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellraiser Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 interesting alterations ... subs lvl 3 woah!!! Rambo's gonna love this!!! With that sick sub tech, i fear that no D-Day will ever be launched Or maybe in 1944 as history says The collossal tech of russians wil give germany a lot to consider - like in real life, the war was to be lost/won in the east ... Although the readiness for Russia it's a little bit higher IMHO. You can basically rape 4 minors...maybe 5: LC, denmark, norway, sweden and maybe Vichy. We can give it a shot Desaix ... Lately i've been considering another strategy for Axis - the NO-DOW strategy - germany doesn't DOW any minors besides LC,Denmark. Until the big guys come into the game. That will be somewhere in 1942 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Cool so the allies can have the cake ...making them a MPP Powerhouse...so the big guys will never join the scene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 This scenario has taken many of its elements from: - Historicity Mod Version: 1.1 by Dgaad (DG) - 1939 Fall Weiss Campaign - v1.04 by Bill Macon (BM) Good to see these ideas are being revisited. I had hoped the Campaign mod would be sufficient for both human games AND solo games as either Axis or Allies. Unfortunately it just doesn't do any of them real justice. Custom Axis and Allied versions are needed for challenging solo play. And human games need house rules or bids or both for play balance. Good luck trying to create that ideal tournament campaign for hth play. There must be a perfect combination of historical setups, at-start MPPs, and house rules for that ideal play balance. It's got to be out there someplace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Hi Desaix I'd love to try out your campaign, but your email address doesn't appear on your profile. If you could send me it by email that would be great. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 So, after some few tests, I found that the sub modification was not that good and needed some tune up... In fact it brougth a complet review of the naval setup... So I have made Beta 2... Here are the main modifications done : This version has taken elements from: - 1939 Fall Weiss Revisited by Narayan Sengupta (NS) UNITED STATES ------------------- USA starts with Advanced Sub tech level 1. FRANCE ------------------- French armies have been redeployed along the border. One have been added, they all start not fully mobilized. (~NS) French fleets repositioned. Bretagne battleship starts at strenght 4. Redoutable and Requin sub fleets added. Provence and Lorraine battleships added at strength 5. France starts with GLR tech level 1. BRITAIN ------------------- Britain starts with 3 air fleet at lower strength levels. British fleets repositioned and initial strength changed. Battleships : King George V (10), Prince of Wales (6), Ramillies (6), Royal Sovereign (6), Revenge (10) added. Vailant removed. Cruisers : Edinburgh (10), Renown (8), Arethusa (10), Repulse (8) added. Gloucester removed. Sub : Sargo (10) and Shark (10) added. Carrier : Furious (5) added. GERMANY ------------------- Germany starts with Advanced Subs tech level 2 to reflect the 25 years development of sub doctrine which began in WW1 and carried through largely without interruption to WW2. (DG) All original sub units replaced by 9 sub fleets : Type IIC (12), Type VIIA (8, 10, 10, 12), Type VIIB (10), Type IXB (10), Type IXA (10), , Type VII (12). Some naval fleet have been added : Tirpitz battleship (1), Prinz Eugen cruiser (5), Bismark battleship (3), Graf Spee cruiser (3). Some naval units in the Atlantic start with experience due to their experienced crew at the beginning of the war. You can mail me to have the file and I will be pleased to do some test game (pbem or TCP) with you ... Desaix [ December 14, 2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 So, after some tests and more historical research here is a new version 2.1 of the 3H scenario... Here are the major changes : FRANCE ------------------- French fleet changed, repositioned and initial strength changed to (Strength/Experience): Battleships: Richelieu (6/0), Bretagne (9/1), Provence(9/1), Lorraine(9/1). Cruisers: Dunkerque (10/2), Strasbourg (10/2). Sub: Sirene (10/0), Espoir (11/0), Requin (5/1), Redoutable(11/0), Agosta(11/0). France starts with the following tech: Heavy Tanks 1 Anti Air 1 As Germans tried to conquer France with limited destructions to cities Advanced sub 1 Historical tech of France in this field POLAND ------------------- Blyskawica cruiser (2) added just for historical fun. Start at experience 4 to reflect port protection. BRITAIN ------------------- British fleet changed, repositioned and initial strength changed to (Strength/Experience): Battleships: Royal Oak (6/1), Nelson (10/1), Rodney (10/1), Duke of York (2/4), Howe (1/4), King George V (6/2), Revenge (6/1), Resolution (6/1), Vailant (8/1), Queen Elizabeth (8/1), Prince of Wales (4/3), Anson (1/0), Ramillies (6/1), Royal Sovereign (6/1), Malaya (8/1), Barham (8/1), Warspite (8/1). (total 17 battleships) Cruisers: Canadian Navy (6/1), Renown (8/1), Hood (9/1), Repulse (8/1). Sub: Sargo (9/0), Shark (9/0), Trident (10/0). Carriers: Furious (6/0), Ark Royal (10/0), Courageous (8/0), Glorious (8/0). GERMANY ------------------- Germany fleet changed, repositioned and initial strength changed to (Strength/Experience): Battleships: Scharnhorst (10/0), Gneisenau (10/0), Bismark (4/4), Tirpitz (2/4) Cruisers: Prinz Eugen (10/2), Graf Spee (8/2) Sub: Type IIC (12/0), Type VIIA (4/3, 6/2, 8/2, 12/1), Type VIIB (12/1), Type IXB (12/2), Type IXA (12/2), Type VII (12/1) ITALY ------------------- Italy starts with 110 MPP, so it can upgrade its battleships. Italy starts with the following tech: GLR 2 With the simulation scale chosed for naval warfare, Italian navy is underestimated (3 battleships are missing). This tech lvl is to better reflect the Italian navy strength. This is a bite gamey but that's the only way I have found. USSR starts with the following tech: Heavy Tanks 2 Anti Air 1 (2) GLR 1 (3) Rockets 2 Indus. tech 4 (2)Russia were able to defend their cities with troops under extrem conditions. This will slow Russian cities conquests by only air superiority only. (3)Russian navy is understimated in the game. As it is not possible to add units, this will help giving Russian navy more power. Design Comments -------------------------------------- - England starts with a REAL navy superiority that will allow more stargegies, escpecialy in the Mediteranean theatre. - For sub simulation, I used historical sources as a starting point but I had to make many changes for simulation purpose due to many reasons such as : the lack of possibilties for Allies to use sub on german trade, the small size of ocean areas and the very low capacity of sub to avaoid boats. So I had to divid allies sub fleet by 2 and to multiply long range germans ship values by two. Sub was the most difficult part to adapt for historical behaviour as they initialy have in SC huge attack capacity on boats and and negligible effects as trade hunters compared to their costs and life duration... Desaix [ December 19, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Desaix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.J. von Arnim Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I'd also like to give this a try - Could you please send it to me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesopo Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I would also like to try the scenario. If you could email it at razuldazul@yahoo.com thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by aesopo: I would also like to try the scenario. If you could email it at razuldazul@yahoo.com thanks! aesopo, I'm challenging you to a game, you have time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 Some last changes have been made to version 2.1 after some more tests, especialy on Italian gambit startegy : ITALY ------------------- Italy starts with 120 MPP, so it can upgrade its battleships. Italy starts with the following tech: Sonar 1 GLR 1 That's it... I have sent the file to people that asked for it (there is a typo in the doc file I sent, it says Sub 1 but it is realy Sonar 1 in the scenario)... I hope to play this mod against some of you soon .... Desaix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesopo Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Comrade, sure what is the bid and losses reported on ISCL league. No special rules or anything prohibited. Everything goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by aesopo: Comrade, sure what is the bid and losses reported on ISCL league. No special rules or anything prohibited. Everything goes. Made a post in the "Opponent Finder Forum". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 Hello, So 3H mod goes version 3... Basicly it now covers all the things I wanted to cover... Further versions will probably be only tune-up and corrections due to more games played... Not much changes this time but it makes a big impact to the game. Here they are : - Couple of minor corrections on units (placement, strength, experience) - All nations start with 1 more tech level in bombers to make them more efficient to use... - 1/1/2/10 (France,UK, USA, USSR) bid system is recommanded (to be tested). USSR ------------------- USSR starts at 68% of war readiness. Tuned-up after some test games... USSR starts with 1000 extra MPPs at mobilization. Bid MPP points are added to this base. MINORS ------------------- IRELAND (no change here) Ireland starts as Allies member. It reflects the general Commonwealth economic support to England and prevents the unhistorical plunder of Ireland by Britain. SWEDEN Stays neutral even if it had economic links with Germany, it was not giving military support and access. IRAQ Represents the Irak and Iran oil ressources and the Middle east supply link to Russia. Stays neutral even if it had economic links with England. It was not giving military support and access. Britain and US had to attack them to secure these supplies and military access to Russia. CANADA Starts already in war, so port supply and spoting can be used rigth away. Troops start not completly mobilized. GREECE Starts as Allies for more geopolitic realisme. Troops are not fully mobilized. First reason is Italy wanted some territorial expensions and Mussolini was jealous of the German success. Greece is the primary and historical Italian expension field, just like Poland is for Germany. Second reason is that the Axis (both Italy and Germany) deployed time, ressources and troops to geopoliticaly and military secure the Balkan. Bulgaria joined the Axis to prevent an imminent German invasion and because of the possible gain of territory. In Romania after a territorial partition ordered by Germany in Sept 1940, Ion Antonescu came to command and joined Axis with the support of German troops stationed in the country so Germany was able to military secure the Romanian oilfields from any further Russian ambitions. As Greece rejected Italian submission "offer", Italian invasion, and later German one, showed Axis will and commitement. It made clear by military actions Axis plans in the Balkan. In SC results of this diplomacy and military actions are hard coded in the game: Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria will turn to Axis without Axis doing anything. Historicaly, Italy and Germany had to send troops and to take actions in this area to have these results. So despite initial historical pro Axis Greek position, Greece starts as Allies as a natural expension area for Italy and to have Axis being more commited in the Balakan for the benefits that will be gained here. As side effects, it will bring a more realistic defence of Greece as armies will be already entrenched. It also gives a strategic oportunity for England to commit to defend Greece (as they historicaly did in a limited way) and maybe to hold it until the Yugoslavian coup to destabilized a bite the area. Thats it... I will send tomorrow the this last version of the mod to the people that have requested the mod so far... Desaix PS: Sorry for typos, getting late... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 No problem with the typos. Interested in your mod and your reasoning. The Balkans, like Poland before the war, were forced in the position of choosing ruination by either Germany or Russia, but either way it was going to come. As German allies they retained more sovereignty than they'd have had going to bed with Stalin. Greece might well have joined the Axis if Mussolini hadn't launched his inept invasion. Yugoslavia didn't actually coups into the allies, it simply coupsed the pro-Axis government out of office. Hitler demanded his new allies help him invade -- he had to. It helped establish that they were in all of it together with Germany, while, at the same time demonstrating that no Baltic nation would be allowed to choose it's own course in non-compliance with Axis designs. Actually, Hitler played the Balkan nations very skillfully. Hungary was in his camp from the late thirties and possibly earlier. Rumania, after the Soviet siezure of Bessarabia, had no choice, it had to join the Axis even without German coersion. Bulgaria joined but with the stipulation that it's troops not be required to leave the Balkans. Prior to this, Hungary and Romania claimed some of the same territory around Transylvania, and Romania and Bulgaria also claimed some of the same territory within Rumania's national borders. All three had their eyes on parts of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria eyed Thesalonika. Rumanian oil -- who would they have sold it to if not the Germans? It 's the same situation as Swedish steel, it isn't as thought they had ways of selling it to Britain or Japan or the United States, and Russia surely wasn't interested in buying any ore or oil, it had plenty of it's own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 From a mail Jersey John sent me: "Looked over your scenario. One thing that strikes me is the extremely high USSR %, something like 68% !! I've never seen it start that high and am wondering what the purpose is? The fleets look awfully strong, with Germany having a lot of U-boats, including one in the Mediterranean. Naturally, the Germans and Italians did routinely get subs past Gibraltar going both east and west, and in the game it's impossible, so if you want U-boats in the Med, you've pretty much got to place them there at the start, as you have." Yes for the sub simulation I had to twist a lot of things as the game is realy not good at simulating sub war... For Russian readiness it is to better reflect Russian geopolitic behaviors. Since the mid XVIII century Russia is a major player in European geopoltic and has always commited to prevent any country domination in Europe and to have its piece of the cake when countries or empires are taken a part... Germany was able to expend to some extend because of its agreement (economical and politic) with Russia... As Germany was invading countries, Russia received part of Poland, Baltes states and some part of Romania and industrial and military supply. Russia even could have taken Finland but this didn't work... So in the game we have again some hard coded compensations for Russia that match the historical pattern. These are to reflect LC, DK, Poland, France, Norway and Greece (not realy for this last one in fact...). Russia would have never let Germany grow to much without having its share. So as we can not give Russia some more territories or other things as German take some more countries, I have set the readiness of Russia to reflect an intervention for any further dow over 3 minors (more or less depends on which ones)... Germany has some choice on which 3/4 ones to take, Russia will have the hard coded compensations for them but after this, Axis will have to deal with Russia directly for further territorial growth... Desaix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 So here here is finaly a version 4 of the mod. I was not planning on having a complet new version but I found some good improvement to make, so here it is... So here are the main changes from last version: -Free French ON will probably give a better result. -Costal sub fleet removed (Sirene for France, IIc for Germany) -French unfinished ships removed, German ones start with no experience. - German sub initial experience decreased and Royal Navy get back Sonar 1 tech. - German troops start with no experience but HQ with exp 1 and 2. - Germany starts at Heavy tank 1. - All nations have Bomber 2 at start. Main new feature of the version 4: NORWAY Starts as allied but has most of its resources controlled by Germans. As Balkans, Scandinavia was an area to be secured for both sides. Allies were denied to send supports to Finland through Scandinavia. Germany was using resources (steel) from Scandinavian ports that were vital to its war industry. England planned very early in the war to mine Scandinavian waters to stop trade and to defend this area. Scandinavia was so important that despite of France and England already at war, Germany launched the Norway campaign to prevent any allies access to it prior to the French campaign. Allies start with very few troops there and will need more to control and secure resources. Germany will have to launch attack fast before the allies have enough time to send a lot of troops and to entrench there. This setup for Norway gives a much different game start with more choices for England (for both navy and ground forces), little more strategic challenge for Germany and a nice historical aspect. FRANCE Start with Gamelin and 3 AF potentialy strong but not ready to use rigth away. This will give more options to France. UK Starts with Auchinleck HQ (6) in England. Norway situation will give Britain choices in priroities between sub hunt, North sea defence, France corps dumping and Norway land defence. I will send the mod file to all of those that received the version 3. I should have more time soon to start some tests on it... Desaix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 I forgot to say that Russia readiness is now at 75%. US one stays at 0% The mod can be downloaded at : 3H mod v4.0.zip Desaix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaggmoth Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I believe that this mod is balanced toward Terif (which one don´t). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 No scenario can be balanced for all experience levels, so IMHO a scenario needs a basic play balance and then both players have to use the right bid to balance it according to their own skill levels. Version 3.0 was well balanced when the players choose an appropriate bid - only the naval warfare needed perhaps some tweakings (was in favour of Axis). Version 4.0 now is strongly in favour of Allies. How it is now, I would not bid to get Axis, but to play Allies . ATM Axis have nearly no chance to win if the allied player has a bit experience. I guess this is an overreaction to our current test game (V3.0) where his Allies are hopeless - but the other side doesn´t look better . There is a huge skill difference that explains the hopeless allied situation, but between 2 equal players it would have been most probably be a balanced game - concerning balance, version 3.0 was the better version. Historical accuracy is a different thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 You are right Terif, differently skilled opponents need allowances for balance (the Bid), especially in Fall Weiss type campaigns. Perhaps a different perspective of playing various campaigns skewed in some degree to one side or the other is another key to balanced games between differently skilled opponents? Another consideration for "winning" is the historical date of surrender, May 1945. If the Axis lose both their capitals, Berlin and Rome, on or before that date, it is considered an Allied victory, otherwise the Axis win. There are other triggers that could be used for identifying a winning or losing side other than the traditional SC ones if balance is the priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 Hehe, no it was not designed to be balanced against Terif in particular... I was not realy hoping on victory against him, I am barely 50 games experienced and he is over 500 ... I am just playing him for fun, to learn the game and to test what pro can do with the 3H scenario... It goes pretty well so far except the naval aspect as Terif said and this is easy to fix... Yes version 4.0 is too strong for Allies but this is not a reaction to the games against Terif There was an error in the initial bid for Russia, written correclly as 2000 in the doc but forgotten at 4000 in the file... In the version 4, I tried to include some historical aspects and Allies options that were not in the version 3 mainly : - Stronger Polish restistance - Delaying a bite the France campain and including the Norway option for both for Allies and for Axis as it was historicaly. - Having a strong French AF able to stand the RAF as it did historicaly. For Noway, I had to set pressure on Axis to invade there before or at same time as France. I thought that an initial HQ in Uk was adding to the threat of an early UK deployement in Dk. As Terif pointed out and after some more tests, this is no need, UK can secure enough DK without HQ and the MPP gained in this operation will allow the HQ purchase soon enough... For France, I wanted the French Af to be able to consistently battle the Lufftwafe, that's why I added Gamelin... But as Terif pointed out again, this opened the way for LC gambit on turn 1. So Gamelin will be taken out and the AA advantage of France will hopefully be sufficient to allow French AF to stand against german air... Version 4.1 is on the way to fix all this and to add minor things... Desaix [ January 23, 2005, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 So here is the version 4.1... Main changes from the version 4.0 are: - Intital Russian mpp corrected to 2000 - All German infantry gained back exp 1 - German start at GLR 1. - 4 German boats gain 1 str point. - Auchinleck removed - Gamelin starts at str 4, in range of Maginot units only. - All Uk carriers str decreased by 2 - Wavell starts at str 10 - English London corps removed - Some Af moved out of range of Brussels - Canadian army starts at str 3 ready to board - All Poland troops receive an additionnal exp level - Suggested bid system is 1/1/5/10 instead of 1/1/2/20 (Fr/Uk/US/URSS) Scenario file to be posted when my ISP will allow me to do so Desaix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desaix Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 Can be downloaded here: 1939 3H scenario version 4.1 Let's go for more tests now Desaix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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