Why the Dutch Gambit stinks

[Liam]

On 10 May 1940 the German forces attacked The Netherlands and Belgium without a war declaration, and although they had done the same in Poland in September 1939, nobody seemed to have expected them.

There was no DOW... So the game has problems with that aspect of our gameplay. In the recent patches Portugal gives Axis Spain. Also the Western powers never plundered nations<they should recieve 0 plunder for DOWs and capturing neutrals, that was a German and Russian habit...

If the Allies don't get Plunder from Low Countries or any Neutrals then there goes the Neutral Race...

[ June 22, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Edwin P.]

If the French had advanced warning of the German invasion of Belgium, might not they had invaded first to secure defensible lines along the river and blow the bridges?

[xwormwood]

Maybe the allies should recieve some "plunder" when the axis attacks a neutral country.

Would be more historical.

------

France didn't believed those warnings ("that's a trick!") ...

[ June 22, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[Liam]

Edwin:

If the Russians and Americans had advanced warning of the DOW on them in '41 perhaps both Nations would've fully militarized in 1939?

WormWood:

I don't see any dutch bankers running out of their nation with suitecases full to give to the Western Allies do you? The Germans were fast and took the Gold of nations. You're saying that the Allies were Raping nations like Axis? It's more than Ahistorical it would have made them the Evil Allies rather evil Axis as it was. Exploitation of the countries resources for personal gain was the Axis key and smothering it's people with everyone else's stuff to keep dissent down. Something we never practiced in WW2. In fact even the Russians didn't...but then again, not many Eastern European nations had much left to plunder. Accept Germany itself which some of those factories which were looted are still in operation today.

Lastly:

Let us do some research and see if the Western Allies really thought about it? The game is loosely based on history all the way through. Troop locations, Earnings, Technology... ?

If the Western Allies could've attacked Belgium and Netherlands and took them in what a week like the Axis did without Blitzkrieg? Doubtful

In fact I'll as far as to it would've been the dumbest move they could've done and only those countries inviting the Western Allies in would be possible...

Invade Ireland-Portugal-Norway-Iraq no way jose. Starve the nations to produce 1000 extra spitfires per?????? the Allies made them friends, and they cooperated with the Allies or the other way around in Sweden and Switzerlands case.

[ June 22, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Panzer39]

Allied plunder would represent whatever able bodied men, warships, air planes, etc were able to flee the country. It would work well for Poland, France,and UK if they fall to the Axis.

[xwormwood]

Liam

Well, i think you really wanted to misunderstand me. I didn't said anything like "allies raping neutrals and should therefore get plunder". That is a fact in SC, but not to be found in my last entry here. Haven't you seen the " " " for and behind " plunder " ??? :confused:

My point was:

When all these neutral countries felt under the german darkness their merchant fleets and often some of their warships helped the allies. Not to forget all these volunteers from poland, czecheslovakia, etc. who fought with the UK.

And when you can buy war bonds, don't you think an US citizen which former home country needs to be liberated wouldn't be a bit more generous considering this fact?

This should be the "plunder" the allies should receive, when the axis declare war against a neutral country.

-------

Panzer39

exactly what i ment, unfortunatly i needed to long to write my little protest cry here, so you answered 11 minutes before me ...

I think this procedure should fit for every neutral country.

[ June 22, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Glad you put it this way, I hate it myself, it's a game killer.

The British, French, Belgians and Dutch had plenty of warning that the Germans would invade and knew the German Army was massed along their borders to the East. Why Holland and Belgium didn't immediately join the Allies seems a mystery to us, but in their own minds they thought they could defend their countries till help arrived as the British and French were also massed along the Belgian Border!

In the case of the Belgians there was some justification as they'd constructed some defenses. In the case of the Dutch, the plan was to withdraw and open dykes, creating a huge moat, meaning they could neither defend the mass of their own population nor set up their Fortress Holland without heavily damaging their own country. Both nations seem to have held on to a fantasy that Germany would respect their neutrality.

Till 1936 Belgium had a mutual defense pact with France, but dropped it exactly when they should most have wanted such a pact!

In the game, I think it's safe to say that, under no circumstances, would Britain and France have become the aggressor nations. And if they do invade, it should set the American War Entry Percentage back to the Stone Age.

The Plunder discussion is interesting and with good points on each side. While I agree with Liam that the Allies would not have gone around raping countries they liberated (except for the Soviets, who did it big time), I also agree with Panzer that this would represent men and material which immigrated to form Free Units. A good point by Liam about the Merchant Fleets, Norway's was particularly important to Britain.

If plunder is strictly an Axis function, then, as was said, part of it should be routed to the Allies, presumably the UK. I think plunder should be something done by both the Axis and the Soviets, while the UK, USA and France would get the fleeing volunteer aspect.

If a free corps were formed in the UK each time the Axis conquered a nation I believe that would cover this very well in MPP terms. France might result in a free Army and the USSR in two free Armies. As mentioned, they would simply appear in the UK or, if the UK were knocked out of the war, in either Canada or the USA -- with Canada receiving first preferance.

[jon_j_rambo]

Didn't Kelly's Hereos plunder? Opps, that was German gold. Opps, the Germans had plundered from France. Where did France get their gold in the first place? Probably from some foriegn country centuries before.

Anyhow...You guys mean well, but are getting a little too deep.

Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas

[Liam]

things for standing up for me JJ

fact is my points are stronger than many expressed here...

Manpower was something the Allies only lacked in one area<decent pilots> The equipment was more valuable and few countries inside of Europe escaped with anything aside from France that I know of<worth representing on the game board>

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Honored to do so.

[xwormwood]

When all these neutral countries felt under the german darkness their merchant fleets and often some of their warships helped the allies

A good point by Liam :confused: about the Merchant Fleets, Norway's was particularly important to Britain.

Thank you, JerseyJohn :eek:

[ June 23, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[JerseyJohn]

xwormwood

You're quite welcome.

Norway had one of the world's largest merchant marine fleets and practically all of it went to Britain. It's often been cited as beeing one of the deciding factors in Britain's survival.

Additionally, there was the windfall of German and Italian merchant ships that were confiscated in UK and American ports and immediately put to use in the convoys. That the United States did things such as this when it was supposedly neutral has always baffled me.

I haven't seen any single work on this aspect of the war -- merchant fleets by nations -- but it would be an interesting subject to explore.

[ June 23, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Yes, I haven't cited Norway's MerchantFleet. Although I haven't cited a single case of Allied Plunder of Minors cause it never happened. Norway was DOWed by Germany, naturally it's fleet would turn Allied. So if the Allies DOWed it, what would've happened do you think that all those Sea Captains would've gone Axis in distaste?

Point is in the end we have two schools of thought should the Allies recieve booty for Invasions? Or shouldn't they? I don't think they should cause in order to get that they'd have to rape the nation and still it's wealth...Which the Axis would happily do...

Should the Allies get a bonus for this Rape? Well, I think that Partisans in both Yugoslavia and Russia and temporary Allied MPPs they got as each nation is invaded by Germany account for some of the plunder. In France you get Free French<You can evacuate the whole friggin Army>

though in reality you should have more discontent Europeans messing with German Production and having a small boost to existing British MPP Balance to check it off. Not make this Ahistorical MinorHopping attitude that would've made Churchil-Hitler-Stalin buddies

[Night]

How about we just put in the options for both the Allies AND the Axis where after they conquer a country, they can choose to plunder it or not, Plunder obviously gives you the cash, where as not plundering saves some war readiness. Makes sense to me, If the U.S. heard stories of the German Army pillaging and destroying France, don't you think they would be more willing to go to war then if they heard the French were being treated well and life was continuing as normal?

The problem with the war readiness option, and this happens in the current version of SC as well, is that after all the major powers enter, there is no penelty for invading anybody you want.

[Edwin P.]

Night,

A most interesting concept.

To Plunder or Not to Plunder, that is the question

Plunder = Cash

No Plunder = Minimal Effect on War Readiness of Major Powers

[Night]

Also, you could turn Allied Plunder on and off before the game, Like war in siberia or partisans. There are plenty of way's to solve this, or even leave it alone, you just have to think ;0)

I personally don't like the idea of the Allies plundering without some kind of negitive effect, but the diplomacy in SC is to primative to do much. That is why I suggested the more advanaced diplomatic engine in my other thread, it opens the doors to a whole world of possiblities.

[KDG]

Plunder is raw materials that the country has built up over time? Whoever controls that country should be able to use those raw materials.

MPP's are only raw material and/or manpower.

One option is to penalize the Allies even more with a penalty in war readiness(maybe also effect Russia). This should be tied in with a multiplier that effects the Axis if they DOW multiple nations.

Another option is make a scenario with the lowlands belonging to the Allies at the beginning of the war?. Germany will still get its plunder. Just remember to bump up war readiness since Germany won't declare war on the lowlands.

Or make it that the Allies can't DOW until the 3rd turn - both by starting the carriers farther away, as well as a couple of armies.

Or just make it a house rule.

[Liam]

KDG and others:

Great points, finally some feedback that I can stomach as far as making it believable. To get the advantage of nation's raw materials it'd take a bit to ship it all back to the Plundering nation<also it's gold that Hitler stold mostly to finance the Reich standing for Plunder>. Also in some cases like when say a Capitol or city or port or whatever is cut off completely from a connecting hex why should the nation owning that hex recieve anything for it? It's not like airpower could transport or would bother to transport a few resources out of that hex it would've been more costly than worth it unless you're talking about all the Gold in Europe. A lot believe had Hitler after Fall of France took some time to collect his resources he would've been unstoppable. Stopping the Brits in N.Africa and eventually outproducing every country in the World including the USSR.

There are many missing cities for France... and whether or not plundering should effect a nations readiness or not is hmmm, not a big point with me. I don't think that Plunder should be nearly as big for either side but the Germans need some in order to start out the war and conquor. They had a surplus of military goods that other nations didn't. Just edit in Units per turn and do away with plunder altogether...

[Edwin P.]

Re; Recent Patch Giving Spain to the Axis

I find this to be reasonable. If Franco saw a large invasion force landing in Portugal he might have panicked and sought help from Germany, fearing that Spain would be next, or he might have massed his armed forces on the boarder of Portugal to deter any invasion of Spain.

Of course, such actions on his part might have sparked another civil war in Spain.

What the game should do, in my opinion, is balance the effect of an allied invasion with their previous actions (ie did they invade Ireland, Iraq, Greece, Low Countries). If Portugal is the first invasion of the Allies then Spain should have a chance to remain neutral, if there are no allied transports off the Spanish coast.

If Spain remains neutral in the face of an Allied invasion of Portugal then it should also redeploy two armies to protect Madrid and guard the border with Portugal. Spain should also have a 30% to mobilize another corps to assist in the defense of Madrid.

Thus you have 3 possible outcomes;

1. Invade Portugal > Spain Allies with Germany

2. Invade Portugal > Spain Neutral but redeploys forces

3. Invade Portugal > Spain Neutral but redeploys forces and mobilizes another corps.

[ June 24, 2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Night]

Sure that could work, and it's a great idea, but it only addressed the problems of the Allies attacking the Spanish etc. Does anyone really think it would have gone well in the democratic nations of the western allies if they declared war on Switz. and plundered it like you can do in the game? There has to be limit's and bennifits for countries depending on thier historical Government and political background. It's unfair to the axis in-game that the allies can just basically romp around the map and invade/plunder/expliot any country they please using their vastly stronger naval power at the start of the game to get them anywhere. By the end of the game, the western allies, and possibly some of Russia, could control every neutral country on the map and be simply unstopable, with Germany and Italy able to do very little besides attack neutrals on the mainland.

It would be a different story historicaly of course if the allies had done such things, but it's crazy to even consider.