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S. Bombers = Carrier Busters (if your rich)


Iron Ranger
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Getting near the end of new ideas for SC but thought I'd throw this out for fun. There are a few assumtions here; I ignored the AA bug, Carriers have 4 bars exp, all air unit have 0 exp, no adjustment for randomness (+/-1 each combat). This example will look at UK with Carriers and Germany with Bombers.

Numbers (from memory so I might be off):

Carriers (AA=1 AD=3) + 1 for each level of jets

Bombers NA 5

Air Fleets AA/AD 3 + 1 for each Jet; ND 2 NA 4

I also assumed each unit was close to the 'top' in supply and command (10 HQ, 10 Supply, full Str). I used L3 jets as a base since its in the middle and a 'standard' level in 42 during Operation Slegehammer.

What we are looking at is the excange of damage between Air Fleet supported Carriers and Bombers. The key here is that a supported Bomber always gets through to the target at full strength.

First, what you normally see: Air Fleet attacks a Carrier in range of support (near UK?)

Axis Air Fleet str 13 Attacks Carrier

UK Air intercepts Axis Air

Intercepted Str now 7 (AD 6 vs AA 6 : 13 - 6)

Continues attack on Carrier Str now -1 (NA 4x0.7 vs AD 7 +/- 2 for exp : 9 - 6)

What you end up seeing is a totally destroyed axis air fleet and the UK with a moderatly damaged air fleet and a Carrier with little damage. Bad move for the axis.

Second, Bomber attacks Carrier with Air fleet support for both. (? mark for LR tech)

Bomber str 10 Attacks Carrier str 10-?

UK Air intersecpts Axis Bomber (13 vs 10)

Axis Air intersecpts UK Air (13vs13: 6 damage each); both air fleets head home.

Bomber (str 2 after combat) hits Carrier (str 7-? after combat); NA 5 vs AD 6 +/- 2 for exp.

The end result is both sides have moderatly damaged Air Fleets (see below), Bomber heavly damaged, and a fairly damaged Carrier. However if the side with the bomber can hit the Carrier 1-2 more times will go down where as if you use only air fleets you will need 2-3 more attacking air then supporting units. And your air fleets might just get wiped out in the first few attacks. This is far from a great situation but unless you aggressivly attack the Carriers early on this is your only chance at sinking them.

Special side notes:

1) If the Bomber can gain exp it will be at a huge advantage as it will counter the exp on the carrier, the carrier will easily go down with 2 good attacks.

2) In the second example the intercepted air are now at str 7 and open to destruction because they are not lower then 5 (forced interception on the next turn).

3) Since Air Fleets have the odd span of NA 4 and ND 2, the best situation is if the Carrier comes close to axis shore and is 'coutered' during its turn (damaged). It will then be 'open' to an assult on the following turn by the Bombers and likely to sink with only 2 attacks. One HQ - 3 Air Fleets and 2 Bombers work well to defend the coast if you hold equal in LR and Jets.

4) In reality this will almost never happen as its too expensive and massed air is the best way to go. IE the best thing for Germany to do when she shifts her air west is to bring it all, or most of it. At which point a smart UK player will pull back and not engage the higher (should be) numbers of axis Air Fleets.

Questons/Feedback?

Edited for the mistake on Carrier AD - thanks Terif

[ January 21, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

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Carriers have an air attack value of 1, that is correct. But the air defense value is 3, not 1. Therefore with Lv3 Jets(AD:3+3=6 + exp) and higher an airfleet gets usually destroyed if it attacks a full strength carrier directly and gets intercepted by an enemy AF.

Bombers have the advantage that they can attack carriers directly with full strength and a higher naval attack value than AFs. The disadvantage is, they are expensive and cant be used for much else than killing ships/carriers.

The problem of a carrier is: its strength highly determmines its readiness. So if it is damaged, it fights very bad. It can make only 1-2 combats, then it has to sail back to a port to repair.

One of the best and cheapest strategies against carriers: stay out of reach of the enemy air with your AFs, but close enough that you can intercept enemy attacks at your ground units. So if a carrier attacks your units, he gets intercepted and looses in average 3-4 strength points. Since a carrier is more expensive than an AF, both sides loose nearly the same amount of mpp, perhaps the carrier a bit more - depends on the jet Lv. UK has not much mpp, one intercept per turn and all UK mpp for this turn has to be spent for repairs. 2+ intercepts/turn and UK will run out of mpp soon and the carrier menace is over... ;)

But if you have enough mpps, or want to surprise the enemy: you can also use bombers...or subs...or GLR+ships...or rockets...etc... smile.gif

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Don't forget that bombers have an extra 2-hexes of range. You can't kill what you can't catch, so quit re-reading the combat charts. If you're serious about waxing the UK-carriers, please plan to enroll & attend "Legend's University of R.A.C.K." class. If you want taught strategies, I'm the source. I'm fond of Terrell Owen's paydirt wristband,"THE ANSWER"...only fans of the NFL will understand that.

Credentials smile.gif

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Rambo 3:16 is the Everlasting One of SC

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Rambo is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd to None

[ January 16, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

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Yeah Rambo, enjoy your Champ glory while you still can... You are the top dog at the moment but we will see if that can change. After the Winter Storm Tourney is finished and when I have taken the crown back in the League we will see who is the King tongue.gif

You are bad-ass when you are motivated (like me). I always come back STRONGER. I'll be bakkkkk! :cool:

[ January 16, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

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Zapp - "Tell me what a man loves, & tell me what a man fears, I'll tell you how to defeat that man" - Preacher Bob Gray from Trinity Baptist, Jacksonville, Florida, USA. Motivation is very important. People work with people, motivation determines success. "Never confuse activity with achievement" -Coach Wooden of the famed UCLA basketball dynasty.

Lets not forget about "The Attack of the Clones", there's a bird name Condor that wants to fly to the top...At the end of the movie "Clones", didn't their teacher come out to fight? I think his name might be Yoda-Terif, who would ever think the little old green dude living & teaching in a cave would be German. When Terif returns, he's going to be facing Scarface. Yoda's ass is mine.

"Look at my little friend" -Scarface

1456.GIF

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LOL you two are nuts tongue.gif Zapp and Rambo

I love you both, :Group Hug: tongue.gif LOL

Interesting! I never knew a Kraut Bomber was Mr. Carrier Killer, can you imagine 2 of those puppies with 3-4 Subs??? And then Fighters to back up against the rest of the Brit Navy! smile.gif I'm gonna practice some new Wax the Royal Navy Strategies. I notice without one, if the Kriegsmarine comes up to size early Domination of the Sea is Domination of Minors and the MPP advantage to pay for expensive Units that though some defensive players may be against Naval is overlooked for most Germanys. Mix the Italian and German Navy and the USA/UK is easy to take out...even if you fail with USSR in '41...

I notice that the biggest Weakness of Carriers is their distance, don't operate where there are 4 Star Carriers with even level3 jets. Problem is inevitably they come to a place that matters... though they're pretty much locked to a small Operating Area. Also if you have an Axis fleet you can doosh Unprotected Carriers so the whole fleet has to move with them.

One last question, HOW THE HECK... does the UK update a small squadron of Swordfish Biplanes into Uber Chuch Yeagers with Jet Engines in 2 years of the War?????????? DUHHHHH! Something gives ??? Bahhhhnessss

[ January 16, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

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Why should I come back from my cave on my choosen planet ? I have beaten Rambos ass 38 times...no need to do it again at the moment :D .

I prefer to use my time now to train new SC knights for the fight against the dark side :D . And there are some very promising young warriors... smile.gif

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um, back to the topic

By now everyone should realize that direct air (fleet) attacks on full strength experienced carriers with tech is a really bad idea.

Terif points out that intercepting the carrier attack can be (cost) effective - but what about forcing the carrier to intercept air fleet attacks on nearby targets - is this an effectively identical situation? Good idea or not?

Thanks

[ January 17, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Friendly Fire ]

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Hi Friendly Fire,

forcing a carrier to intercept is not that cost effective as intercepting the carrier - at least not at higher tech levels.

Both the AF and the intercepting carrier takes 2 damage less in average(naval defense value of the airfleet is only 2, instead of the naval attack value of 4 that it uses when the AF intercepts).

Since the carrier is more expensive than the AF, this is better for the carrier. Thats another reason why the AA Bonus is no problem and usually cant be used - to use it, the AF had to force the carrier to intercept, so in the end there is no advantage ;) .

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"Those who can do, those who can't teach". These old strategies & conversations are just that, obsolete.

The game has gone into a whole new direction. There are many "strategies within strategies", taking chances, new mini-gambits, & a great bid system of 1:5:20. Condor's Scadavanian Flight is hitting the bookshelves. The Rambo Low-Country-Lite has taken course World-Wide. Reading combat charts & looking for bugs is old news. It's not Feb. 2003 anymore.

It's like comparing old computer languages versus object oriented.

[ January 17, 2004, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

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In order to properly discuss a strategy, it's more than.......well, I read the chart, the results is +1, minus this. It's a combination of exploitation: port bug here, spotting operand rule here. If you want to read charts & not play strong opponents instead, that is an option.

Personally, I like the live action of TCP/IP against the World's Best smile.gif

It's more than being a Legend, it's being an active Legend.

[ January 17, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

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So what values are used when an airfleet/carrier intercepts?

Let's say AF attacks a naval target and a carrier intercepts.

Is the interception battle

(i) AF NA v. Carrier's AA or

(ii) AF's AA v. Carrier's AD

(iii) AF AD v. Carrier's AA

(iii) some other combination of the above, which,

(iv) something else, what?

Does this change if AF is intercepted by an another AF?

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Originally posted by willebra:

So what values are used when an airfleet/carrier intercepts?

Let's say AF attacks a naval target and a carrier intercepts.

Is the interception battle

(i) AF NA v. Carrier's AA or

(ii) AF's AA v. Carrier's AD

(iii) AF AD v. Carrier's AA

(iii) some other combination of the above, which,

(iv) something else, what?

Does this change if AF is intercepted by an another AF?

iv) Something else. The Carrier will be the attacker. That means Carrier use AA (attack against air units) but Air Fleet uses ND (defence against naval unit).

So, the values uses are ALWAYS based on the enemies unit TYPE not the weapon type they use for the battles.

[ January 21, 2004, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

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